Braves 4, Marlins 3
Atlanta Braves vs. Florida Marlins – July 24, 2012
Another one-run game, but this time we had the correct result. The Braves should have had a lot more than four runs — Mark Buehrle was all over the place (partly due to Laz Diaz behind the plate, calling a predictably unpredictable strike zone), giving up five hits, four walks, and a hit batsman in five innings, but the Braves only scratched three runs off him, leaving the bases loaded in both the third and the fourth.
Hudson had one of his oh-no-oh-okay games, giving up three runs in the first two innings but then retiring the last 16 men he faced, coming out after needing just 80 pitches to get through 7 innings. O’Flaherty and Kimbrel shut the door effectively. Uggla was 0-3 but he only struck out once, which almost looks like progress if you squint.
From the previous thread on Teheran:
Telegraphing makes sense. Both Teheran’s FB and change were getting hit pretty hard.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:02 amWhen did Uggla start hitting last year? A similar second half from him would be huge.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:44 amIIRC, his hitting streak began just before the all-star break.
Right now, the only thing Uggla does well at the plate is take a walk.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:54 amDodgers got Hanley Ramirez.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:22 amDodgers fans have to be ecstatic. Also, just to highlight the difference between what Wren and Dodgers are willing to pay for Dempster (according to the latest reports): Allen Webster is the same age as Delgado, but still in AA, where his numbers are actually worse than what Delgado has done at the major league level. I doubt he would even crack our top 10. Dempster really screwed the Cubs.
July 25th, 2012 at 6:10 amI’m sure there are some Dodgers fans who are having Manny flashbacks.
July 25th, 2012 at 6:55 amAnyone know how Mac’s doing?
July 25th, 2012 at 7:04 amFrom last thread,
I liked TDKR but the Dark Knight is a really high benchmark. It should have won the Oscar that year. I thought Bane was pretty cool but no one can come close to Ledger’s Joker. Anne Hathaway was good and I think this was Bale’s best performance as Batman.
I’d still say that Nolan’s Batman and Lord of the Rings are the best trilogies ever, with Star Wars right behind.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:11 amMarlins got basically nothing for Hanley. Dodgers pick up the rest of the financial obligations.
What an embarassing organization. Ozzie should be the next to go.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:11 amWell with the Dodgers moving Eovaldi in the deal, they are making room for Dempster in their rotation.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:15 amAlso, Cole Hamels is re-upping with the Phils. 6/$140MM…crazy.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:24 amGrienke just got a lot more expensive.
I wonder if we could trade for Ozzie?
July 25th, 2012 at 7:29 amThe Phils have 4 players making as much as the entire Braves roster.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:37 am@8 Wow, can’t agree there. I don’t think this trilogy is going to have nearly the lasting power as people seem to think it does (I don’t feel the Dark Knight or Batman Begins hold up after multiple viewings). The original Star Wars trilogy is the best trilogy in my opinion, if only because I felt Jackson really botched Return of the King.
Yeah, we just lost any chance at being able to afford Greinke long term.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:48 am2008 was the year of No Country For Old Men and There Will Be Blood. I liked TDK a lot, but let’s not get carried away here.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:57 amPluse, with Hammels off the market, the asking price for Greinke will go up.
I think we are looking at Liriano at this point.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:58 amNo Country for Old Men still gives me the shivers just thinking about it.
The Braves have lost any leverage they might have had by making it known they were going after a pitcher come hell or high water. If they were going to overpay for Dempster, they are going to have to overpay for anyone else now.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:06 amHanley for a couple of scrubs…unreal
July 25th, 2012 at 8:06 amEovaldi isn’t a scrub.
Good thing the Marlins got their new stadium.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:10 amWill Hanley replace Gordon at short?
July 25th, 2012 at 8:11 amFor what it’s worth, I still think Greinke is worth going after for the last two months, but Wren would never do it.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:13 amStu’s worthless order of preference:
1. James Shields
July 25th, 2012 at 8:16 am2. Josh Johnson
3. Zack Greinke
Mmmmm, James Shields would be nice.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:17 amWren says Dempster deal is off.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:19 amGood, now get Shields
July 25th, 2012 at 8:19 amWhere did he say that?
July 25th, 2012 at 8:22 amIf Josh Johnson is healthy…
July 25th, 2012 at 8:23 am#26 – http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/07/24/ugglas-slide-continues-minor-makes-some-strides/?cp=21#comment-1733327
July 25th, 2012 at 8:25 amEverybody and their mother knows we want/need frontline SP without Wren doing a thing. And they also know that we’ve got nothing to trade for premium pitching but what we’re apparently offering…the promise of premium pitching next year or the year after that.
I still say Dempster did us a favor, we should try to win now, and go get any of the three Stu listed @22. We have the offense. Let’s cash in and get the pitching we need to win it this year.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:36 amI’d be higher on Johnson than Shields, but that I’d probably have to abandon Braves Journal beginning in 2013 if Delgado is included in the deal….
July 25th, 2012 at 8:46 amWe are going to slip into a period of suck unless our prospects pan out, so we might as well go for broke while we have our best offensive pieces in play.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:51 amYeah, Johnson’s a better pitcher than Shields, but Shields is (a) healthier, (b) under contract for a year longer, and (c) not on a team we’ll have to face with whatever prospects we give up in the deal.
Shields is very good and pitches a ton of innings. And he’s signed through 2014. He’d be an awesome acquisition, although I know he won’t come cheaply.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:54 amI’m in line to go home today, though I will still need nursing care. Sorry for lurking, but I’m still getting used to this keyboard and have packed up my laptop.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:56 am@31, I typed up a whole big thing, but you said it all right there. We may slip into a period of suck REGARDLESS of whether our prospects pan out because we’re going to lose some key offensive pieces and we can’t afford to replace them all.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:00 amLurk all you want, Mac. We need to know you’re out there.
Glad you’re feeling better.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:00 amRumor is Texas will offer Mike Olt for Josh Johnson. If so, he’ll end up in Texas.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:04 amShields would probably improve getting out of that division also.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:05 amThe good thing about the Dempster fiasco is that I am now fully prepared to lose at least one of our top pitching prospects. And I’ll now be relieved that it’s not to acquire two months of Ryan Dempster.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:06 amLester could be available also.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:09 amJohnson-Hudson-Hanson-Sheets-Minor would look like a darn good rotation. But, I bet it would take Delgado and teheran to get it done, and I hope Wren doesn’t pay that.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:11 amShields has made 204 starts in his MLB career, dating back to 2006, and he’s averaged 6 2/3 innings per start.
Workhorse.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:12 amI never bought the whole “facing our own prospects for years” thing. They’re going to get SOMEBODY’S prospects. You want to face Delgado 4 times a year, or Mike Olt 18 times?
July 25th, 2012 at 9:14 amLester is pitching horribly. Why would you want him?
July 25th, 2012 at 9:14 amWould it take Delgado and Teheran? According to most people they gave up Hanley for nothing, so you never know with the Marlins.
I thought TDKR was good. Probably the “worst” of the three, but Begins and Dark Knight are such great movies that being the worst doesn’t necessarily say much. It was a somewhat flawed but great close to the trilogy, I believe.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:17 amLester would make tons of sense as a buy-low, but zero as a deadline game-changer.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:20 amWanting Lester is grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side syndrome.
Lester is pitching much worse than Delgado.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:28 am@45 I agree. If Boston is looking to dump him, he could be a good low cost acquisition.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:30 amWelcome back, Mac.
Lord give me patience, right now! and two ace-quality pitchers, a strong righthanded bench bat, and a dependable bullpen arm, please.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:31 amIf you like xFIP
Lester 3.80
Dempster 3.74
Low risk – high reward and may cost less.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:38 amSo if Lester stops giving up homers, and Dempster starts, then they’ll be the same pitcher.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:45 amI wouldn’t mind Lester, but it would have to come with another pitcher.
I’m with Stu. Let’s get Shields. He is a guy that goes deep in games. If we can get a lead or be close in the 7th, I like our chacnes with the back end of our pen.
Shields + RH bench bat + a reliever= a tough team to beat.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:46 amI also bet the Phillies shop Cliff Lee.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:47 amHanley Ramirez became a very expensive league-average SS in a short 2 years. Maybe Mattingly can light a fire under his ass.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:51 amI can’t get my head around a pitching evaluation method that ignores homers allowed.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:54 amI cast my vote for Johnson. I wouldn’t even mind Delgado in that deal if we can re-up him at $20M per or less.
14 – I am curious as to how Jackson “really botched Return of the King.”
July 25th, 2012 at 9:58 amExtending Johnson for anything close to 20 million is courting catastrophe. The guy is good when he is healthy but for that much money you can’t risk a guys spending half the time on the DL.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:02 am“…he could be a good low cost acquisition.”
Low cost? Lester is due $11,625,000 in 2013. For the current Liberty Media cheapskate Braves, that’s a huge amount. The Braves are going to have a lot of money to play with this offseason, who wants to blow a significant chunk of it on 5.46 ERA Lester?
July 25th, 2012 at 10:02 amLesters been a 200IP/200K pitcher the last 3 years. He may just be ready to move on from Boston. Not saying he’s my first choice by any means.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:04 am#57 – Nothing compared to Greinke’s cost.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:04 amOn the durability scale, Josh Johnson makes Ben Sheets look like Tom Seaver.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:05 amWhen Cole Hammels signed this morning the cost of Greinke in both prospects and long term $$$ went up big time.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:06 amThe Braves are going to have a lot of money to play with this offseason, who wants to blow a significant chunk of it on 5.46 ERA Lester?
Lester ERA last 4
3.41
3.25
3.47
5.46
Shields ERA last 4
July 25th, 2012 at 10:07 am4.14
5.18
2.82
4.39
@55 I can’t think of a single thread in that movie I thought he handled well. I didn’t like the way he paced the battles, everyone is too split up, I don’t like the multiple endings… bleh. It’s my favorite of the books, so that’s probably why I judge that film more harshly.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:10 amI have to imagine any non-rental means Hanson is on the move in the off season. At the very least, it means he’s allowed to walk when FA eligible. And Jurrjens is obviously getting non-tendered.
Any pitcher we sign to an extension has to be getting money earmarked for Jurrjens/Hanson.
24 mill is a problem. 16-17, I think is money they planned to spend anyway.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:13 am62—Shields costs $21 million and Lester costs $24.625 million through 2014. For what it’s worth.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:14 amRight Ill take either though
July 25th, 2012 at 10:16 am65—And that doesn’t account for the extra ~$1.5 million Lester is owed over Shields over the rest of 2012.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:16 amI think people are only suggesting Lester if Boston is aching to move him (which I think they are) and he can be had for lesser parts. He would be a supplemental move and it’d have to be the right deal. Unlikely that it could work out, but it’s worth looking into.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:21 amIf you’re trying to win the world series this year, I have to think you want a guy who’s performing well right now, not a guy who’s down, but you think will turn it around.
That’s why I was in favor of Dempster.
If you’re trying to build for the future
July 25th, 2012 at 10:21 amI’d be happy with either Lester or Shields. Got to get a guy whom you control for more than this season.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:22 amStupid phone… If you’re trying to build for the future, Lester or Shields are fine choices, if you extend them. And hey, maybe they’ll figure it out THIS year.
If you want to win the world series this year, next year, and the year after that, pay for Greinke and extend him.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:24 amI think you can also take into account that Lester is playing in an absolutely toxic atmosphere in Boston. Half of their team has checked out and Valentine is a joke.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:25 amWould rather the Braves spend money signing Greinke or re-signing Bourn than blowing their wad on a ‘maybe’ in Lester.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:26 am@73 I don’t think anyone is saying Lester is “the guy”. He’s “a guy”.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:29 amShields is not having a bad year. Trading for him would be trying to win now. And you’d get to have him, and all those above-average innings, for the next two years, too, and not at $20M per year.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:30 amI know he’s in the AL East, but he’s got a 4.40 ERA, and its been on a steady incline since the beginning of May.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:43 amFor what it’s worth Buster Olney just announced that the Cubs are going to keep Dempster, make a qualifying offer and take the supplementary pick. The Dodgers wouldn’t even give up the value of a supplementary pick! Wren should come back and offer Spruill and Terdoslavich. Tell him the offer is good right up to the deadline if Dempster is willing to reconsider.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:44 am@77 I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cubs come crawling back and try to get something. It could get interesting.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:47 amYeah, as with Dempster, I don’t think you can just look at 2012 ERA to make your evaluation.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:47 amBut don’t get me wrong, I’d take him. I’ve got no problem with the middle-road, blended-approach. And I think both Shields and Lester are that.
I think that’s the kind of move the Braves will make, and I think its plenty smart.
But i think its fair to characterize a Shields acquisition as “Better now, and better later” rather than “All in now.”
July 25th, 2012 at 10:48 amAgreed.
Maybe they’ll throw in Zobrist and Rodney!
And Price!
July 25th, 2012 at 10:51 amPull the offer. Since the draft pick is better than what the Dodgers are offering, maybe Dumpster will have to stay with the Cubs for two more months. A fitting end for him.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:52 amCan we agree that this confirms Delgado was a gross overpay for Dempster?
July 25th, 2012 at 10:59 amHow could anyone disagree?
July 25th, 2012 at 10:59 amWhat I find hilarious is that, according to Peanut, teams started calling Wren when they saw he was offering Delgado for Dempster.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:03 amBethany – what threads were so poor?
I thought the Shelob sequence was excellent as most of the Gollum content up to that point.
FWIW, upon reflection Return was probably my least favorite of the three. Fellowship was the best.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:04 amWhether or not it would be overpaying pretty much depends on the ability to sign our target to a multi-year deal. Delgado for a two-month rental seems like a definite overpay, but I gotta think that we’d only do a deal if we thought we’d get Dempster (or whoever) for say 3 years or something.
On an unrelated note, I just looked at Teheran’s last 10 starts in AAA…my gosh he’s been awful.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:05 am@87 Yeah, but Dempster would have been expensive a big risk to sign because he’s a strikeout pitcher who is aging.
@86 I’m not going to break it down. I don’t like the film, it’s my opinion, and that’s all there is to it.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:08 amTime to trade him for Shields, Zobrist, Rodney, and Price. And Baldelli.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:08 amFWIW:
Ryan Dempster since returning to starting in 2008:
ERA+ 117
WHIP 1.291
H/9 8.3
HR/9 0.9
BB/9 3.3
K/9 8.1
K/BB 2.49
James Shields since 2007 (leaving out his rookie year, as it was a partial season.)
ERA+ 105
WHIP 1.235
H/9 9.0
HR/9 1.2
BB/9 2.1
K/9 7.6
K/BB 370
Dempster walks more, but strikes out more, gives up fewer hits, gives up fewer homeruns, and thus gives up fewer runs.
Sure, Delgado for Dempster straight up was an overpay. But we don’t know that that was the deal, since nothing was ever made official. Keith Law said “Delgado is in the deal,” and everyone’s head exploded, and we’re just going with the narrative that’s the most fun. But many were reporting Delgado +1, which, giving Wren the benefit of the doubt (which I feel he’s earned, with some good, creative moves) I’d have to say we were getting Reed Johnson on Shawn Camp back, probably by underpaying for them, in order to facilitate the Cubs acquiring Delgado. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assumption.
But Shields will cost a lot more, for virtually the same performance. Shields is younger and extendable, Dempster you don’t want to extend. But Dempster has been outrageous THIS year, while Shields has just been Shields.
I just don’t see a reason to hate one acquisition and love the other.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:09 amShields’ K-rate has been trending upward, whereas Dempster’s has not. Shields is also not just “extendable” — he’s under contract in 2013 and ’14 for a total of $21M. Shields also averages almost seven innings per start!
And he’s also teammates with Zobrist, Rodney, and Price.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:12 amI would rather Medlen go to the rotation and go after 2 stud relievers than any other current known option. Greinke would severely strap our cash for years to come, Dempster is a stupid overpay, and no other known option is an upgrade over Medlen. See what the Rockies would take for Belisle and Betancourt, and find a RH hitting outfielder. If that doesn’t get us into the wild card, so be it.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:14 amThose reports of Delgado+ made it pretty clear that it was Braves giving up the +, not the Cubs. The only thing the Cubs agreed to kick in was salary relief.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:17 am88 – Was not trying to make this a debate. Was just curious. Sorry to offend.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:19 amLet’s say the Braves do acquire a “top of the rotation” guy today. Press confrence is held, some panic and some rejoice, etc. Then, on the day of the deadline, Theo calls up (with Dempster’s approval) and asks for something much lower in value than Randall Delgado, something like the Spruill/Joey Terds package mentioned in 77…if you’re Frank Wren do you take it? Is the value of Dempster any greater than Mike Minor, whom he would displace from the rotation? Even though Mike Minor would pout for days, I think it may be worth it. I don’t think the Braves can trust Jurrjens with any more starts down the stretch, and if giving up nondescript prospects and pissing Mike Minor off is what it costs to make that situation less likely, I think it’s worth it. Plus, I think Wren should squeeze the Cubs for Reed Johnson in any Dempster deal.
Sorry for the wishcasting ramble from someone who reads daily but almost never posts!
July 25th, 2012 at 11:21 am@88, agree that it’d be a risk, but keeping Delgado is also a risk. I think the way to build a consistently winning team is to trade unproven players for proven when possible. Of course there’s always exceptions…and it’s not arguable that Dempster is older than you’d like when talking about a multi-year extension.
But we’ve been drinking our own koolaid with the young pitching prospects, to the point where any deal that involves them is going to cause people to scream an whine about Texiera-deal-redux. The reality is that it’s unlikely that any of them will have a career equal to or better than Dempster’s. That’s just the way “prospects” work.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:25 am87 – I am not sure extending Dempster age 36 and beyond makes it any sweeter to give up Delgado’s age 23 – 27 seasons.
I posted details on Teheran’s start last night at the end of the last thread. I think the stuff is still there (CB is better), but his approach needs to be tweaked.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:26 amWatching Hanson do his thing it is pretty clear that Delgado is our #3 starter already.
July 25th, 2012 at 11:55 am@93 – I don’t think you understood me.
Yes. The reports said that it was US throwing in the plus. The reports said Delgado +1 to Cubs.
But all that tells me is that the leak came from our side.
If it’s universally agreed, by fans here and by pundits on Twitter, that 5 years of Delgado for 2 months of Dempster was a huge overpay, why would Wren be the only one who didn’t get it?
And why would Wren have to throw in MORE?
Probably because The Cubs and Braves agreed that Delgado for Dempster didn’t work, but the Cubs wanted Delgado or no deal. So the deal was expanded, and the Cubs addition was not leaked.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:08 pmIf I understand this thread correctly, it would be a mistake to trade Gollum and Delgado to Gotham City for Greinke or Laster, because they’re botches who cost too much. True?
And Hanson needs to remember that league rules don’t require him to start every inning with a runner on second.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:08 pmThat way once they steal third he doesn’t have to worry about the running game.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:14 pm101- Not necessarily; you remember that play the Padres pulled off in LA a couple of weeks ago, right?
Another magic act by Hanson. Don’t count on those.
And I meant Lester in #100.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:16 pmHe seemed to find his control at least. He could retire 12 straight.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:22 pmTommy Hanson can’t do anything when he’s off the mound.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:22 pmThis place is the best during Hanson starts.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:22 pmI just hate Tommy Hanson.
Maybe he should be a reliever.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:23 pmWhat exactly happens during bunting practice I wonder.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:23 pmGO AWAY ALREADY
July 25th, 2012 at 12:26 pmI’m not convinced the Braves go for a front-line pitcher at this point. And if they do, I’m not convinced it will hamstring us going forward. Say they get Grienke for $20M per. Half of that is Lowe, and eventually Hudson will come off the books, so that’s the other half. Next year could be tough, but no JJ means a $5.5M savings. The real question is how you fill two holes in the OF, though maybe you can resign Bourne with his money from this year plus Chipper’s. Heck, he probably won’t even cost that much.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:27 pm“And Hanson needs to remember that league rules don’t require him to start every inning with a runner on second.”
Still hasn’t gotten the memo.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:29 pmI like that Francisco stood tall and came toward Reyes, didn’t give him a chance to slide.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:30 pmHanson is just as sharp as normal….we need to get some runs because he won’t keep pulling rabbits out of his hat
July 25th, 2012 at 12:33 pmI don’t think this particular version of our lineup is optimal for getting runs.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:34 pmTommy’s control missed the plane to Miami. 32 balls to 24 strikes?!?
July 25th, 2012 at 12:34 pmI hate Tommy Hanson and I hope the team plane leaves without him.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:35 pm5 stolen bases in 2 1/3 innings? Maybe the clown should stop walking teams doubles and triples or learn how to hold runners better
July 25th, 2012 at 12:35 pmWhat made anybody believe Tommy Hanson was a baseball player?
July 25th, 2012 at 12:40 pmBoo Hanson.
Hooray beer!
July 25th, 2012 at 12:40 pmThree doubles, four walks, five stolen bases and only one run… being a Marlins fan so far today must be almost as frustrating as being a Braves fan.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:40 pmHow rare is it for two under-26 pitchers on the same team to suffer such a decline in skill sets?
July 25th, 2012 at 12:41 pm117—His 3.00 ERA in this game…
July 25th, 2012 at 12:41 pmWe can’t let this much luck go to waste.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:43 pmWith 65 pitches thru 3 innings, the bullpen is going to get worked a ton today. Just bring Medlen in now for his 3 innings
July 25th, 2012 at 12:43 pmWow. An inning with 3 walks; 2 SB; and a double, and they scored 1 run. That has to hurt.
Hanson’s and the team’s failure to address the inability to hold runners (weren’t they like 25 for 26, last year, off of Hanson?), is a disgrace. That isn’t talent; it is effort and practice, on technique. Someone is being lazy (Hanson) and someone is letting him get away with that (the organization). Look at how good Shields is at pick-offs and holding runners; that isn’t talent-it is will and technique.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:44 pmI was expecting us to be down 4 after reading the comments.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:44 pmI still think Hanson’s hurt.
Coming into this game, in 116 IP he gave up 13 SBs. Which is — was — a huge improvement over last year. 30 SB in 130 IP.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:46 pmHanson starts are just pure gold.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:46 pmGreat job Freddie and Jason!
July 25th, 2012 at 12:51 pmHanson’s starts have become more like pyrite lately. But that’s still better than JJ or Minor.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:52 pmI’m with Bethany. I thought I was going to see a blowout the way the comments are, not a 1-1 tie.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:52 pmJUAN!!!!!!!
July 25th, 2012 at 12:52 pmYes!
July 25th, 2012 at 12:52 pmBehold the power of cheese!
July 25th, 2012 at 12:53 pmJUAN! Hey, a one-tool player is still fine if he uses that tool a lot.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:53 pmIf Janish gets on, does Fredi pinch hit for Hanson? (No, but he should).
July 25th, 2012 at 12:53 pm@125 and 132
That is how it is around here. If we aint up 13, we suck.
You fail most of the time in this game.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:54 pmConstanza, our Opening-Day CF, next year.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:54 pmWow… Francisco earning a paycheck today!
July 25th, 2012 at 12:54 pm@128 if we can get some production out of Michael Myers and Leatherface today we may pull out a win
July 25th, 2012 at 12:57 pmNo sitting on your hands Fredi.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:57 pmJJ Hoo?
July 25th, 2012 at 12:58 pmHe only missed by four feet with that one.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:58 pmOh my god. Anybody up in the pen?
July 25th, 2012 at 12:59 pm6 stolen bases? Wow.
July 25th, 2012 at 12:59 pmThis is insane.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:00 pmLove Top 3:
1. Craig Kimbrel
2. Martin Prado
3. Frank Wren
Hate Top 3:
July 25th, 2012 at 1:01 pm1. Liberty Media
2. Fredi Gonzalez
3. Jair Jurrjens
It could be that Hanson can actually strike people out at will, and he is simply a great artisan who looks at pitching as the theater of the absurd.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:02 pmFour innings, five walks, six strikeouts, seven stolen bases. He has to be trolling us.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:04 pmWow! It doesn’t happen very often, but when Francisco connects, the U.S. Geological Survey has to officially mark the spot where he’s standing as an epicenter.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:04 pmAnd this may well be one of his masterpieces.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:05 pmIf he had failed to advance Janish I was ready to pronounce him a genius.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:07 pmPay the man!
July 25th, 2012 at 1:09 pmBourn needs all the money.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:09 pmYou’re all thinking it.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:10 pmNow we’ll see if Tommy Hanson knows how to win.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:10 pmTommy Hanson knows how to win.
Trivia time.
.345/.424/.586
A player in the NL, entering today, had this slash line. Who is this player?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:11 pmThis is one weird-ass game so far.
Also, I’ve said this before, but it cracks me up how tired Bourn always looks after he runs. He even looks ready to collapse after a home run!
July 25th, 2012 at 1:11 pm“Coming into this game, in 116 IP he gave up 13 SBs. Which is — was — a huge improvement over last year. 30 SB in 130 IP.”
He is going to give up his 17 SB improvement, today.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:11 pmJuan Francisco is going to take a pitch to the back one of these days.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:11 pm“A player in the NL, entering today, had this slash line. Who is this player?”
Stephen Strasburg?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:11 pm147—I’m guffawing in my office.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:12 pmSo, which team is going to make the most nutty offer to Bourn that the Braves have no prayer of matching? I’m going to guess Detroit.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:14 pmRaise your hand if you thought Bourn had a good shot to out-homer Prado this year.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:15 pm@156 Melky?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:16 pm160,
Indeed. With those two consecutive number 1 picks, the Nationals grabbed arguably the two best players ever drafted in MLB history. Lucky.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:17 pmI looked at Melky’s slash, saw that it didn’t match, and still threw up a little in my mouth.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:17 pmRaise your hand if you were rooting for Solano to steal second!!!
July 25th, 2012 at 1:17 pmWith those two consecutive number 1 picks, the Nationals grabbed arguably the two best players ever drafted in MLB history.
Somebody needs a big ol’ gulp of Settledown Juice.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:18 pm162,
Washington. Or LA. Dave Cameron said today that a reasonable estimate for their payroll ceiling is around $200 million.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:18 pm“So, which team is going to make the most nutty offer to Bourn that the Braves have no prayer of matching? I’m going to guess Detroit.”
Detroit has ex-georgia tech basketball signee Austin Jackson in center. It will make me puke if we cannot sign Bourne; he does so much for this team.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:18 pmHow do the Braves have a four-run lead in this game?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:18 pm168,
I should probably replace ‘best’ with ‘most talented’, but I don’t understand how that statement is unreasonable.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:19 pmMy god, Tommy.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:20 pmIs it wrong that I want today’s game to be a sign from Tommy? That he’s decided it’s better to go back being the pitcher he was last year, striking out lots of guys with his old delivery and not caring a whit about the running game, until his shoulder finally gives out?
Better to burn out than to fade away, Tommy!
July 25th, 2012 at 1:20 pmI would seriously consider pulling Tommy Hanson with two outs in the fifth just out of spite.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:21 pmDouble steal?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:21 pmI think, at this point, this is Fredi’s fault.
Also, maybe Tommy’s high?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:25 pmwell, one reason we are still winning is that SB’s are terribly over-valued. Look at the 2nd inning; the out made by Reyes at 3rd, stealing (obviously 1 run, plus a potential huge inning), vs. the 2 stolen bases, which meant nothing, because the next guy walked.
However, 2 HRs always equal at least 2 runs.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:25 pmWhew.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:25 pmSo why did the Marlins make their CF depth 418 feet?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:25 pmI hate Hanson starts, win or lose.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:26 pmHow do the Braves still have a four-run lead in this game?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:28 pmPS: In the post game show, Cliff Floyd blamed the heat and humidity for Buerhle’s problems. Think about it for a second.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:28 pm170 — I hadn’t actually paid much attention to Austin Jackson’s stats this season, I just remembered he wasn’t all that impressive last year. So they are probably not in the picture as you rightly imply.
Maybe the White Sox… or the Giants just to really piss me off.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:28 pmFreaky–7 BBs, 7 SBs, 7 Ks, all in 5 IP.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:29 pm183,
In a closed, air conditioned stadium where the temperature is about 70 degrees.
Makes complete sense.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:30 pmI’ve tried to not say this today, but Tommy is killing me. Can we include him in a trade for a couple of starters, please? I hate watching him pitch.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:30 pmWay to go, Juan!
July 25th, 2012 at 1:32 pmWhats faster: Brian McCann running the bases or Hanson’s delivery to the plate?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:32 pmStu – we no longer have a 4-run lead.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:34 pmDon Sutton sounds like he’s in a prozac stupor. His call of McCann’s slide into home was given in the same voice he reads the lineups with. I have no idea if it was a close play, a good slide, or a bad call. I love Jim Powell as the play-by-play guy, but Sutton just doesn’t communicate as much as I want to know.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:34 pmThis has been my favorite Tommy Hanson start ever. The results are good (so far…maybe there’s more!), people are extra crabby on here, and I am suitably entertained.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:35 pmTotally agree, Pete. Don’s always been awful at PBP.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:35 pm7 walks, 7 stolen bases and 7 strikeouts.
There is a beautiful symmetry here.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:39 pmSo long, Tommy. Hopesfully now our ulcers will subside.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:41 pmThat stat line is usually accompanied by 7 ER.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:41 pmTommy was brilliant entertainment today. I hate to say it but I am actually looking forward to watching his start.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:42 pmI don’t disagree that Don isn’t the best play-by-play guy around, but just internally comparing him to Chip makes it instantly a lot more bearable for me.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:42 pm#191
Don’s rather lacking in that department, yes; but he still has a ways to go before he becomes John Sterling, who continues to work in an alternate universe.
As bad as Hanson was today, at least he got some K’s in big spots. That throw from Janish helped, too.
FWIW, Mets are no help again today.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:42 pm*next* start
July 25th, 2012 at 1:43 pmMeanwhile, the Cubs were kind enough to pull Dempster after 6 innings, to keep him rested for us, in case he decides it doesn’t suck to live in Atlanta.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:43 pmApparently Dempster threw a couple of bats and some Gatorade while exiting his start.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:44 pm7 is also the over/under for the number of posters on Bravesjournal that are about to suggest Medlen should be in the starting rotation.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:45 pm202- Because he knew he could have had the run support we provided Tommy?
July 25th, 2012 at 1:45 pmDon’t look now, but the Phillies are starting to heat up.
Medlen must be wondering what the hell he has to do to be allowed to start a game.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:45 pm#1 of 7!
July 25th, 2012 at 1:46 pm203- I don’t know that “about to suggest” is the term I’d use given how long people have been calling for it here.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:46 pmMedlen definitely belongs in the rotation in its current state.
After watching Juan’s reaction to his HR, I think he would be the perfect Melky V 2.0. He just needs to drop 20 pounds.
‘I’m from Florida’- kid they’re interviewing on TV.
No Duh.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:46 pm@198 – he followed the McCann slide with something like the following call of Bourn’s steal of 2nd :
“Bourn’s running (pause) The throw is right…on… (long pause)…the money, actually it’s a little high, and Bourn is in there with the steal.”
That is a Chip Caray special, and there wasn’t even any reason to rush it. He just started with an inaccurate call and kept going with it before correcting himself.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:48 pmI’d put Medlen in the rotation.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:50 pmThe Marlins announcers talked about the grass that whole half inning. We’re not the only team with bad announcers.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:51 pm@209
Don does these weird run-on sentences where between pitches he’ll begin an anecdote, then when the pitch interrupts him he’ll twist whatever he was saying into a tortured homespun aphorism to describe the play, without ever stopping to take a breath.
“So after school we would head down to one of the saltwater lakes near Mobile Bay and do a little noodling, which is what you call fishing for catfish with your hands and Heyward does a little handfishing and will noodle his way back to the dugout after a routine grounder to second base….” or something like that. This will now drive you as crazy as it does me.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:00 pmIf you’re not a Marlins fan — and maybe even if you are — Rich Waltz is completely insufferable.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:00 pmIf a radio announcer just accurately describes the action (like the late Met announcer Bob Murphy), I can put up with almost anything else.
If they’re good at that and they have a winning personality/genuine sense of humor (like the Mets’ Howie Rose), that a huge bonus and a bit or a rarity anymore.
Powell at PBP & Don doing color is just fine, but we’re still a long way from Skip.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:00 pmI really, really like Powell at PBP.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:02 pmBlam.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:04 pmThat Heyward is so unexciting.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:05 pmAnother boring 3-hit 1-run allowed performance by Braves Journal’s leastest favoritest pitcher evar! And he only struck out 7. Plus he sucked at bunting and also allowed 42 stolen bases. Textbook Hanson start. I wish this place was as entertaining during non-Hanson games.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:06 pmChip is a significantly better play-by-play guy than Don. There, I said it.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:07 pmAlso, I don’t know if I’m the only one who hadn’t figured this out yet, but if you grow tired of the ridiculous Scout feature on Gameday, you can turn it off by clicking on the sprocket-looking thing in the upper-right corner, just below the out-of-town scoreboard.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:10 pm218,
‘Least favorite’ is a little strong. You should have seen the threads for Jo-Jo Reyes’s starts.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:11 pmI also find it amusing how people are really up in arms about getting rid of Delgado, but 60 percent of the people on here would give up Hanson for just about any damn thing.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:15 pm@222 – Hanson is getting paid handsomely for this, Delgado is not.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:17 pm222- Is it also an amusing coincidence that pretty much no GM in baseball would take Hanson for just about any damn thing?
July 25th, 2012 at 2:19 pmIs Medlin being stretched out today?
July 25th, 2012 at 2:19 pmActually, I reckon he’s not. I thought he had arb this offseason
July 25th, 2012 at 2:20 pm@223 – Hanson makes about $55,000 more this season than Delgado does. Hanson’s still a wage slave.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:21 pm@226 – Yeah, that.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:22 pmIt’s not just Hanson’s proximity to arbitration. There’s also reason to think he’s just not going to be the same as he was.
Not that I would give him away for nothing, even if he is pitching at close to replacement level.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:24 pmThis is an encouraging return. Bringing O’Ventbrel back together can make up for some of the sins of our rotation.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:26 pmVenters looks better.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:26 pmThat could be huge.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:27 pmSweet.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:28 pm4-3 against the Natsops and Anchovies. Not a bad little road trip.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:28 pm4-3 against the Natspos and Anchovies. Not a bad little road trip.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:28 pmGood velocity, good movement from Venters. Having old Johnny back for good would very nice.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:29 pmI didn’t realize the game was this afternoon. But it was nice to check in and see the Braves won.
What a bizarre line from Hanson.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:35 pm“Don’t look now, but the Phillies are starting to heat up.”
This is as with the Mets in 2006; getting beat by a team so much you can’t accept when they’re down and out. The Phillies are ten under .500.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:50 pmOne of the MLB video clips from the game is titled “Hanson’s strong outing.”
Yes, really.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:10 pmCHRIST.
The last pitcher with a 7 K, 7 BB, and 7 SB line was Bob Feller.
At the conclusion of the game, Chip Caray called Hanson’s performance, “historic.”
…
July 25th, 2012 at 3:21 pmExcept that I bet that was in 9 innings, not five.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:35 pm@240
July 25th, 2012 at 3:43 pm“hysterical historic”
@238, In fact, while I’m not afraid of the Phillies surpassing us this season, I think they’re in a position now to (continue to) play us tough and be spoilers.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:45 pmTweet from DOB:
“#Braves Hanson on Medlen following w/ 3 near-perfect IP: “He made it look so easy. I’m sitting here like, ‘I suck. I’m NOT good right now.”
July 25th, 2012 at 3:47 pmphils down 6-5 in bottom of tenth
July 25th, 2012 at 3:52 pmRemember when Francisco Rodriguez used to be good? Yeah, I really miss those days now.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:00 pm“All I said this morning – and I think I told you guys last night – I said that it’s highly unlikely that we make that deal,” he said. “We had certain parameters that expired yesterday. I’m not going to get into great detail on this, other than to say there were certain parameters for us that expired. And the Cubs were fully aware of it and understood.” – Frank Wren
I like the sound of that.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:04 pmWould you guys be open to including Teheran in a trade for Greinke? I think I would.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:13 pmI think we should call Seatle and try to blow them away for King Felix. It won’t work, but wouldn’t it be fun if it did.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:18 pm#248 – Teheran is still young, but I really dont see why he should be untouchable.
#249 – Dont think we have enough to offer them.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:22 pmHas Hanson said or done something other than not be a Cy Young caliber pitcher that makes everyone hate him so much? That quote @ 244 makes him seem pretty self-aware and likeable to me.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:23 pm@249 – Now we’re talking. From a pitching standpoint, what organizations could offer the equivalent of Teheran/Delgado for King Felix?
July 25th, 2012 at 4:26 pm@251, Apparently, attempting a comeback that entails reworking your whole delivery after suffering a potentially career-derailing injury means you get labelled with “SoCal insouciance.”
Or my favorite little meme from here, “He’s no John Smoltz.”
July 25th, 2012 at 4:29 pmIf you are putting Teheran in to play, pitchers with better contract status/talent ratio than Greinke become available.
So, absolutely not.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:40 pmI don’t try to read too much into his body language. But Hanson does every Small Thing poorly — he doesn’t hold runners well, can’t handle the bat whatsoever, and is a bad fielder generally for a pitcher. There are, I would guess, around three or four examples per start where he looks hopeless attempting any of these things. There are also the several times per start where he misses the catcher’s target by two feet or more. Put it all together with the increasing BB and HR rates (aka the Big Things), and it makes for a uniquely frustrating viewing experience.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:42 pmFun fact: the Mets’ lead over the Phillies is now 2.5 games.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:44 pmSo he needs to win Cy Youngs and Gold Gloves. I guess he’s no Greg Maddux either.
July 25th, 2012 at 6:02 pmActually Maddux was pretty notoriously easily to steal on as well.
July 25th, 2012 at 6:14 pmBut an awesome fielder.
July 25th, 2012 at 6:26 pm@257
Didn’t say that. I said he stands out as being noticeably bad at that stuff — and while the little things are just that, my fear is that they speak of someone who may lack an underlying baseline of athleticism that can impact the length and productivity of a career.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:03 pm@244, Love the quote.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:18 pmHe has a partially torn rotator cuff and he’s pitching through it and trying to change his mechanics on the fly in order to maybe help relieve the stress on his shoulder. Go look at the first three seasons of his career and get back to me about how sucky he is. We should be so lucky to find 3 or 4 more guys that are equally sucky.
He’s struggling because he’s hurt, he’s lost some velocity, and he’s tinkering with his delivery. It’s not because he doesn’t care, or isn’t trying, or isn’t athletic. C’mon people.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:24 pmI think the point is that Hanson is still helping us to win despite all that. Should be hate Francisco more than Hanson for example? It all comes down to the fact that we expected more from Hanson. It’s like the Andruw and Heyward sencarios all over again.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:30 pmFredi quote of the day:
“They’ve got some guys that can run. That’s the way [Hanson] has been forever. We try to speed him up every once in a while. It concerns me a little bit, but I go back to what my people from SABR [Society for American Baseball Research] say, that stolen bases do not equal runs, and today it came true. But it’s not really a good feeling when guys are running all over the basepaths.”
July 25th, 2012 at 7:32 pm@262
Well now, don’t lump me in with the people who say he doesn’t care or isn’t trying, because I find that as ridiculous as anybody. To expand on my original answer to the question of why do people here hate Hanson so much, I’ll say to the extent it’s true it’s for reasons both good and bad. Further, I don’t “hate” him, but I find him frustrating to watch for the reasons I tried to cite. Are you not finding him frustrating to watch?
July 25th, 2012 at 7:33 pmBack in the WC spot for the moment, Atlanta & Pittsburgh.
And where do we play our last 3 regular-season games? Yep, Pittsburgh.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:35 pmThe fact that he can’t field, or hit, or even bunt has nothing to do with his injury. I like Tommy Hanson, and I think the only reason he is still as successful as he is can only be due to toughness, a fiercely competitive personality, and some pretty decent pitching smarts. But the funniest thing about these threads is when people start coming after the fact and acting as though Hanson pitched like Greg Maddux just because he went five innings and got the win.
I suspect few of them actually watched the game. I mean, come on, that game was completely nuts. It might have been the most improbable pitching performance I’ve ever seen.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:38 pm@265, he’s no more frustrating to watch than any of our other pitchers. The frustration with Hanson is that his injury is going to make it tough for him to live up to the career path that his age 22/23/24 seasons were projecting. Rotator-cuff problems mean loss of control and loss of velocity. I don’t blame *him* for that though. His curve ball is still one of the best in baseball and that alone is enough for me. I just hope he doesn’t hurt himself any more.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:40 pmSo I thought I’d put my own contention to the test. The theory is that pitchers who are particularly bad at non-pitching aspects of the game are likely to be less successful pitchers overall.
I can’t come up with a good test regarding fielding, but I did look at all pitchers who 1) had at least 100 PAs as National League pitchers in 1973-2012 and 2) started in at least 40% of their career appearances, and arranged them by batting average.
The worst 10 pitchers by batting average were Brian Moehler, Mark Clark, Rick Helling, Ben Sheets, Bill Grief, Mike Bielecki, Claudio Vargas, Doug Davis, Al Leiter, and Chris Holt. The sum of their career WAR is 132.3.
The best 10 were Ken Brett, Allen Watson, Brandon Backe, Mike Hampton, Dontrelle Willis, Carlos Zambrano, Rick Rhoden, Dan Haren, Don Robinson, Tim Lollar. The sum of their career WAR is 148.6.
OK, the difference there is probably solely attributable to their difference as hitters, so I’m not sure this says much. I will say that the good hitters, with Carlos Zambrano and Dan Haren still active, are likely to stretch out the lead over the bad hitters, with Sheets and Doug Davis still playing. But, not significant in any case.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:44 pmAnother test might be to compare the WAR based on errors and fielding chances converted per innings pitched.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:53 pmI’d like to, but BB Ref doesn’t have sortable fielding stats.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:55 pmFielding is irrelevant for pitchers. Anyone can field a two hopper right at them. The rest are probably better left to the SS/2B most of the time anyway.
Bunting I’ll give you..it’s not that hard, and it is frustrating to watch someone who’s terrible at it. Still, it’s so far down the list of what matters for a pitcher that I have a hard time getting worked up about it. Just tell him to close his eyes and swing.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:00 pmWere you around when Madrid was here? Fielding for a pitcher is irrelevant? I don’t even know what to say to that.
Hopefully we’ll get to watch a season of Zack Greinke here. That kid is an athlete, and it helps him.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:18 pmYes, Madrid. Thanks, Android.
Obviously, I meant Maddux.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:18 pm@260,
July 25th, 2012 at 8:31 pmSorry, I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth. I just think our players catch a lot of unwarranted grief around here when there are perfectly reasonable players to hate on other teams, like Melky and Cody Ross.
Although I was fine with hating Melky in a Brave’s uniform, too.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:32 pmRecapped.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:50 pm