07 May
Game thread: Braves at Cubs
The Cubs’ leading hitter this year has been someone named “Bryan LaHair“. I have no memory of this person.
Braves News (Official)- Braves News (AJC)
- Atlanta Braves: Sizzling Freeman doing his best Kelly Leak
- Atlanta Braves: Braves scoring, winning despite leadoff deficiency
- Atlanta Braves: After 2 months of struggling, B.J.'s got it going
- Atlanta Braves: Braves' Gattis keeps making it look easy
- Atlanta Braves: Much ado about bats, but Braves' pitching has been key
Let’s keep the streak rolling in Old Coors Field!
(Or is the Denver Ballpark ‘New Wrigley’? I can’t keep that distinction straight…)
May 7th, 2012 at 2:15 pmYesterday, some sources were predicting rain for tonight’s game, but it looks as though it’s going to be a nice night for baseball.
On another note, Freddie Freeman, not Bryce Harper (was surely considered for merely existing) named NL Player of the week. Congrats Freddie! Eat dung Bryce.
May 7th, 2012 at 2:38 pmFreddie is on pace for over 140 RBI. He won’t get there but it’s crazy to think about. I wish he was walking a little more, though.
May 7th, 2012 at 2:39 pmIf LaHair were on the Braves, I’d root hard for the guy. Career Minor Leaguer with great power and good walk rate. He’s deserved this opportunity based on numbers alone for a long time. Good for him.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/23843/bryan-lahair-the-best-story-of-the-season
May 7th, 2012 at 2:59 pmThe norm
Bourn
May 7th, 2012 at 3:21 pmPrado
Freeman
Bmac
Uggla
Chipper
Heyward
Pastor
Hanson
Hamels gets 5 games.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:13 pm#6: Sounds about right to me. Just because I endorse what Hamels did doesn’t mean there should be no league repercussions. My guess is Hamels agrees with me and won’t fight it. After all, 5 days is a really lukewarm penalty: it’ll be a very minor inconvenience for the Phils rotation and by the end of the year, you won’t see any evidence in his GS totals that he was suspended. Looked at it that way, it could almost be more of a message to Harper than anything.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:30 pmA ridiculous suspension. I don’t think Hamels had any real reason for it, but there’s also no reason whatsoever for MLB to take the issue off the field where it had been resolved, as the pitch had no chance of hurting him. Harper, much to his credit, even took it in stride and pretty much shrugged the issue off.
It’s sad to see how soft the sport is getting. We celebrate pitchers who used to knockdown, brushback, and yes even deliberately bean, hitters all the time. But now we have players getting suspended for a simple plunk on the back, and umpires warning teams because an inside pitch gets away (which negatively impacts the game when it affects how pitchers are allowed to approach batters, i.e. they’re afraid to throw inside for fear of reprimand). MLB might as well just go the route of slow-pitch softball and add a second, orange bag on the foul side of first base because “hey, safety!”
May 7th, 2012 at 4:40 pm“MLB might as well just go the route of slow-pitch softball and add a second, orange bag on the foul side of first base because “hey, safety!””
The ‘ban maple bats’ and ‘put a net all the way around the infield’ crowd approves.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:47 pmWhen Hamels admitted it publicly, MLB’s hands were pretty much tied.
May 7th, 2012 at 4:50 pmRay Chapman thinks helmets are for wussies!
May 7th, 2012 at 4:56 pmI actually don’t remember the last time I watched a game where the umps did the whole preemptive warning thing. It seems to me that, after an initial period of overenforcement, it hasn’t been an issue in a while. That’s the way it usually goes with making a rule, right?
May 7th, 2012 at 5:01 pmHamels gets five games, or as we like to call it, an extra day of rest between starts.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:02 pm@9 Because shards of wood flying in people’s faces is just part of baseball, right?
May 7th, 2012 at 5:02 pmThe girl who Pastornicky hit paid a just price for not paying absolutely constant attention!
May 7th, 2012 at 5:03 pmGrst, I agree with Rusty. Hamels admitted it, so a penalty of some kind was in order. If he’d not said anything, or said “it just got away.” Nothing would have happened.
And honestly, even with the penalty, nothing is happening.
But I totally agree: baseball is suffering from a little bit of wussification.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:04 pm@12
I’ll contradict myself and say the rule against arguing balk calls remains suffocating and weird.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:04 pmI’ll ask again, is anybody going to the games at Wrigley this week ?
May 7th, 2012 at 5:07 pmI’m reminded of Burt Lancaster in Atlantic City, shuffling along the boardwalk and lecturing a whippersnapper about old times. “The Atlantic Ocean was something then. Yes, you should have seen the Atlantic Ocean in those days.”
May 7th, 2012 at 5:09 pmI am not in Chicago this week. You may weep for my absence if you like.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:10 pmHot dogs are a known choking hazard for kids. All ballparks need to ban them. Anything that has ever hurt anyone at any time ever, or just has the potential to, obviously needs micromanaging.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:11 pmI will weep Sam, I wish you were here so we could have a delightful argument.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:13 pm@21 – Boy… you’ve got a real point there.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:16 pm@21 Yes, a hard object flying 100MPH at you is totally the same thing as being a poor masticator. Great job Dan!
May 7th, 2012 at 5:17 pmNow, now, people, don’t all gang up on Dan. We all have our ways of getting that adrenaline rush from courting danger. Some people climb mountains…some skateboard…and Dan attends baseball games in person.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:23 pmWe used to celebrate hot dog vendors who passed on infected or poor quality goods to consumers as titans of capitalism. I weep for the wussification of hot dog eaters.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:23 pmIf you were a real man, you wouldn’t let salmonella pick on you. Why don’t you just man up and punch it in the mouth next time it gives you shit, you little crybaby?
May 7th, 2012 at 5:38 pmDid I just hear a Drive-By Truckers song on an STP commecial?
May 7th, 2012 at 5:40 pmMy friend that I’ve discussed here before (author of God and Football) has invited me to go to Moscow with him in June. We will be there to get perspective on Christianity from Russian Christians and from Americans who are Christian in Russia. The interviews, church visits, and all that go with it will take up about 2 days but I’m open to suggestions on places to go (restaurants, historic sites, museums, etc.) for the remainder of the trip, which will be about 4 days. Thanks in advance.
Also, my wife and I are headed to Ireland to hike the Dingle peninsula and any knowledge of hotspots in that area will also be greatly appreciated.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:40 pm“Now, now, people, don’t all gang up on Dan.”
No, no; go ahead. It’s comical, the people who think they need businesses (MLB) and governments to protect them from themselves.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:43 pmSpike: Someone makes a simple assertion that baseball is “a little bit wussified” and so I undermine that with a ridiculous comment about hot dogs. Classical argument!!!
May 7th, 2012 at 5:45 pmThat’s right! If you get hit by a baseball you were clearly asking for it! Let’s take the windshields out of cars, because if you get hit by debris on the road it’s your own fault.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:46 pm“We all have our ways of getting that adrenaline rush from courting danger. Some people climb mountains…some skateboard…and Dan attends baseball games in person.”
To hear Bethany tell it, between the “wood flying in people’s faces” and “hard objects flying 100MPH at you;” an MLB game in basically a war zone.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:48 pm@16 So he’s being punished not for his actions on the field, but for making MLB look bad by being honest about it? Well, I can at least buy it as a possible rational from the league’s point of view, even if I still find it insufficient as such.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:49 pm#28
May 7th, 2012 at 5:49 pmNot only is it the “Lookout Mountain” riff, it’s guitarist Mike Cooley’s voiceover.
@30, I was replying to 21 and not you, but if you insist on being included, fine – I am sure the coddled prima donnas that are today’s ballplayers wouldn’t have lasted 10 minutes on your post-little league nine.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:50 pmsorry @31. Damn edit function missing
May 7th, 2012 at 5:50 pmAnd to hear you tell it, the only thing that preventative measures prevent is freedom.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:51 pmWoah, woah, woah there Dan! Governments to protect us? You wouldn’t be grabbing hold of a discussion of machismo bean-balling to make sweeping generalizations and cram your political views down our throats, now would you?
May 7th, 2012 at 5:58 pmHBP’s are fairly common (approximately as frequent as sacrifice bunts), but how many batters have actually been seriously injured by being hit by a pitch? a tiny handful, if even that?
I can understand how folks who haven’t been in the situation can think it very dangerous, but it’s actually not. So long as you’re wearing a helmet and capable of turning your face, there are very few places a ball can hit you to cause serious injury. It hurts, sometimes a lot, but it’s not particularly dangerous. Probably even less so than things like sliding head first, or taking out a player to break up a double play.
May 7th, 2012 at 5:59 pmThanks, ububba.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:01 pmI guess nothing should suprise me after Fox started playing Widespread Panic during the WS a few years back.
The last two threads have been incredible. Even better than Rizzo v. Hamels.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:03 pm@40- at issue isn’t “safety” in and of itself. Of course theres a risk of concussion, but more at issue is a minor injury causing a player to miss time.
The potential of changing the competitive balance of a division by breaking a hamate bone or a rib of a player, intentionally, because you think he’s icky is problematic. Better to just put the kibosh on intentional HBPs and encourage the players to even their scores in ways that can’t effect the quality of competition, and thereby, the product on the field.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:04 pm#30: Asking if you played organized ball past Little League was not designed to insult you. I’m sorry you’ve taken great indulgence in insulting me.
I asked that question for a reason. You don’t seem to grok that baseball players have a system in which pitchers sometimes punish opposing hitters for breaking certain unwritten codes. My assumption was that you haven’t really been around any real baseball players who played the game in a serious way. It turns out my assumption was right.
Your worldview is that there is no such system, even though there’s a massive amount of evidence that there is one. You have nothing substantive to say about the players that subscribe to such a system (which, off the top of my head, would include the anti-Pascual Perez Padres, Tom Glavine throwing at Dale Murphy, TP running off the field in protest against his timid teammate Marvin Freeman, and of course Hamels…) Instead, you turn your wrath and indignation on me, who has never once thrown a major league fastball at a major league douchebag’s rumpus.
I am not the problem. Your problem is with your inability to grasp with how major league players think in the real world, and if not condoning it, at least accepting it on its own terms rather than your own faulty premises.
You have another problem subordinate to that one, and that’s not being able to provide counterarguments without making cartoons out of what other people say.
Bryce Harper has entered Major League Baseball. His talents are obvious, as is his tendency to be a douchebag. There are some ballplayers who will not want him to be a douchebag. They will do everything from take him aside while shagging fly balls and give him some homespun wisdom, to hitting him with purpose pitches. There is nothing violent or uncivilized about the latter. I understand that you disagree with me, and I’m fine with that.
Jason Heyward will not have to deal with any of Harper’s problems, and as a Braves fan, I am very thankful.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:06 pm@43 Is there any evidence that has ever happened? And why is the prospect of retaliation not a sufficient check on such behavior? Heavy-handed rules affect the quality of play, too.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:06 pm#43: Following up on Grst’s post: If you’re going to raise the specter of broken hamate bones or broken ribs, can you cite an example of a purpose pitch like the one thrown by Hamels that has caused such an injury? (I’m not talking about dickheads like Clemens throwing at batter’s heads because he’s got emotional problems.)
May 7th, 2012 at 6:09 pmClaiming special insight based on experience and then complaining when called on it is right up there with hitting someone with a baseball because you don’t have the courage to take them on man to man. I guess Moyer should have just hit Chipper. Clearly all the players know what the unwritten rules are and should expect to be corrected when the pitcher deems it necessary.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:11 pmTwo other notes, slightly off-topic:
John R, what kind of “message” would the league be sending Harper? “We have to appear to protect your safety because of the union, but, we kinda think you’re a dick, so, we’re gonna give the penalty no teeth.
This 5 famed for a starter is standard practice. The idea is that, we can’t keep your team from adjusting the rotation without suspending you for 10 days, so, we won’t. But you’ll lose 3% of your pay, just like a hitter who charges the mound.
Second, someone noted a starter being suspended last year for throwing behind a batter, and not even hitting him… It’s commonly accepted that throwing behind a player can be more dangerous than hitting him in the ribs, because the natural tendency to bak away from the plate, not go toward it.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:12 pmGames, not famed
May 7th, 2012 at 6:15 pmThe potential of changing the competitive balance of a division by breaking a hamate bone or a rib of a player, intentionally, because you think he’s icky is problematic. Better to just put the kibosh on intentional HBPs and encourage the players to even their scores in ways that can’t effect the quality of competition, and thereby, the product on the field.
Fine. From here on out all MLB disagreements will be solved the old fashioned way. By having Nolan Ryan wail on people’s heads.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:16 pmI would be fine with that. I have little baseball experience, it’s true, but I was a 3 year starter on the Auburn rugby team. I am no tough guy, but I played with a few, and they would find Sams’ idea eminently preferable to some throwing a ball at someone nonsense.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:18 pmAnd to answer your question, I have no evidence that an intentional HBP has lead to any specific injury. But I fail to see why it matters. Are you going to contend that these surgeons of the mound will be sure to avoid inflicting injury?
May 7th, 2012 at 6:19 pm#47: Wait, what? I was “called on it”? When? Is this another one of your hyperbolic overstatements?
There is an unwritten code about showboating in baseball. Don’t do it. There are countless examples that this is so, including one that happened just yesterday. Hamels was very explicit what he did and why he did it. Are you really going to continue to be this obtuse?
May 7th, 2012 at 6:19 pm#52: Most pitchers known to place their purpose pitchers at a players mid-section.
If a pitcher intends to throw at the knees or the head, he is being a dick and deserves to be punished. If a pitcher doesn’t intend to throw at those areas, but accidentally does so anyway, well them’s the hazards of the trade, and ought to be punished accordingly.
Anyway, Hamels was not actively trying to injure anything but the part of Harper’s ego that makes him such a douchebag. It’s important to recognize this before getting all hysterical about the “violence inherent in the system.”
May 7th, 2012 at 6:22 pm@50- I think you understand what I mean. You can’t have the Phils run away with the division because the Nats go out and break Heyward’s wrist because he watched a homer for 2.4 seconds, instead of the accepted 2 seconds flat.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:24 pm#29
Never been to Russia. Even though I’ve heard the food’s kinda terrible & everything’s super-expensive, I still wanna check it out one of these days.
Ireland’s pretty awesome. I’m a fan of Dublin—not everyone is—but Galway Bay is a pretty terrific site. Music’s pretty good in the city of Galway as well.
The Ring of Kerry tour is worth it, IMO. Lots of sheep, lots & lots of sheep.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:24 pm@53, when there is clear disagreement on what both the crime and penalty is from current and former players it ain’t being obtuse. I’ve given you specific recent quotes from former players saying this is NOT the way the game is played, and you have hand-waved them away. You are continuing to assert things are true without providing any evidence that it is so, other than your experiences.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:25 pmThe only counter quote I’ve seen is from Mike Rizzo, the Nats’ GM. That’s not a counter quote of much merit.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:29 pmYeah, I didn’t answer John’s question in the last thread about baseball experience, because I didn’t want the conversation to become about credentials. We’re all paying attention, and have been for a long time. I’ve listened to Rob Dibble talk about codes. I know them well enough.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:29 pm@58, Bob Tufts explicitly said over at BBTF “I never heard of hitting a players because they were viewed as a hot dog or arrogant.”
May 7th, 2012 at 6:32 pmI’m still confused as to what gives Cole Hamels the right to hit him. What did he do to COLE HAMELS except beat his team twice in a row?
May 7th, 2012 at 6:33 pmYou’ve given a quote from Harper’s GM. Saying he’s biased is not “hand-waving them away.”
You’ve also given a quote from some guy who pitched a few innings 30 years ago. I don’t know in what context he made that comment, if it’s a full or edited quote, or if he’s suffering from Alzheimer’s, but I’ll grant you that one.
But then you’ve got the examples I cited earlier, and I forgot the Mike Schmidt quote someone else mentioned that perfectly illustrates the concept. I mean, Tom Glavine threw at freakin’ Dale Murphy for crying out loud because. You’re in denial, dude.
Here’s a writeup on that moment, to refresh your memory:
“Tom Glavine vs. Dale Murphy, June 19, 1991: After Philadelphia’s Roger McDowell drills Atlanta’s Otis Nixon in the top of the ninth inning, it’s time for payback. The responsibility falls to Glavine, whose body language suggests he would rather drill Mother Teresa than his friend and former teammate, Murphy. Glavine throws four batting-practice fastballs well inside, but can’t muster the enthusiasm to paint Murphy’s back porch red. Umpire Bob Davidson ejects Glavine, regardless.”
Now, why was Roger McDowell throwing at Otis? Well, our guy was doing a little showboating. That’s why. McDowell didn’t want to let that pass so he drilled him. (Mike Schmidt wasn’t retired by then but surely approved.) It just so happened I was watching that game that day with a girl I had just started dating. I was having to answer all her questions about “what’s happening?” When it got to the brawls, I had to explain to her about how players often police themselves on the field when they perceive lines have been crossed.
She didn’t really seem to have a problem understanding that.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:35 pm@62, I’m afraid if you haven’t played D-1 athletics, I can’t really explain it to you,
May 7th, 2012 at 6:38 pm#63: See, I don’t get that, nor is it in any way responsive. You’re now just interested in being a dick and wasting my time. I’ve always liked you, Spike, especially as a musician, but jesus dude.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:39 pmI kid, but seriously, even if every baseballer that ever played agreed with you it’s still a fallacious appeal to authority – baseball players agreeing to act like cowardly P*ssies as a group doesn’t change the fact that they are acting like that. And providing an anecdotal quote as proof that it’s the general or even majority opinion still leaves you woefully short on the burden of proof here.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:41 pmCan I point out there’s a difference between retaliation and hitting a player because hes icky and makes you all mean inside.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:41 pm@64, then you should respect the fact that I maintain my convictions to my friends as well as anyone else.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:42 pmWho cares who Cole decides to hit and not hit? If he wants to hit a player, he can. He just better hope his players support that decision also, because they’ll be on the other side of this.
We didnt care when Venters plunked Fielder last year.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:43 pmIf you hit Chipper Jones because Michael Bourn stole third up 4, I’m going to hit your Todd Helton. I will not hit Jose Reuse because he plays hard, kicks my ass, and is happy to do it.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:44 pm@52 No, I’m contending that it is utterly foolish to enact solutions to problems that don’t exist.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:46 pm@66 – No.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:47 pm@68 – Zimmerman had the balls to hit Hamels, rather than Pence or some other star player.
If you hit Harper, and they hit Pence, Pence might want a word with you.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:47 pmI kid, but seriously, even if every baseballer that ever played agreed with you it’s still a fallacious appeal to authority – baseball players agreeing to act like cowardly P*ssies as a group doesn’t change the fact that they are acting like that.
What a strange argument. The discussion with you is whether such a code exists or not. You say it doesn’t. I say it does. If every baseballer that ever played agreed with me, it would prove that I’m right. That’s all I’m trying to prove.
Your premise that the code makes players inherently “cowardly pussies” is one I don’t accept. But it’s not what my argument with you is about.
“And providing an anecdotal quote as proof that it’s the general or even majority opinion still leaves you woefully short on the burden of proof here.”
And yet my several anecdotes are far bigger in number than your two, one of which is Harper’s GM. And yet you try to win an argument using the same standards of proof you find so woefully short with me?
I don’t understand you.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:48 pmAgony is out for the year, tore his ACL.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7902528/alex-gonzalez-milwaukee-brewers-season-knee-injury
May 7th, 2012 at 6:49 pmYes he did, but Zimmerman could hit anyone. He took it out on Hamels, next time it may be Pence.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:51 pmNow who’s being obtuse. The idea that this is an morally acceptable practice because some group of folks say it is what’s unacceptable. The fact that you have proof that some players agree with this construct is not a validation of it. Further, I am not trying to ‘win an argument’ based on this, merely pointing out that your moot point isn’t even provable, let alone sufficient rationale for engaging in it.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:56 pm73—It’s really not that hard to understand.
You say: Good for Hamels for throwing at Harper. He broke The Code, and The Code is a reasonable thing, so he deserves what he got.
spike says: The Code? Where can I get a copy? It’s obvious that not everyone agrees on what The Code says, and anyway, even if The Code says that, The Code is stupid.
There are two parts to the argument: 1) Does The Code exist in clear form? 2) Assuming it exists, if it entails pitchers throwing at hitters, is it a good thing?
You disagree on both questions, and you’re both switching back and forth between your answers to the two questions. All this effort trying to falsely paint spike as moving the ball seems like a waste, to me.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:57 pm@74
That’s too bad — he had an option that vested with playing time. Now he’ll be a 36-year-old free agent shortstop coming off knee surgery. Not a big market for that. He was an unspeakably awful hitter for long stretches with us, but he played good defense with a lot of panache, so I liked him in spite of the clueless hitting approach.
May 7th, 2012 at 6:58 pmFive games is the standard. Hammels shoudl have been suspended. As for the girl that got hit in the stands, hey, you have to pay attention if your goign to sit that close. If you don’t want to, then get seats somewhere else. It is not big secret thar you might get hit with a baseball at a game.
This has been an epic day on here.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:02 pmIN CHICAGO…
May 7th, 2012 at 7:02 pm1) Does The Code exist in clear form?
How can something “unwritten” exist in “clear form”? It’s a pretty simple concept. As I stated before: Don’t showboat. Don’t be above the game. If you do, some folks might try to teach you that lesson in ways you won’t like.
Who here disagrees that such an “unwritten code” is well understood to exist by the majority of baseball players? Besides Spike, that is?
Just because it’s administered differently by different players doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist at all.
2) Assuming it exists, if it entails pitchers throwing at hitters, is it a good thing?
Not always, no. But a lot of times it is a good thing. It depends on the situation. You know, baseball players disagree with each other on a lot of things, including the unwritten codes. That’s why they fight from time to time.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:03 pmWill Chip give us the history of the Chicago Cubs tonight?
May 7th, 2012 at 7:07 pmIt’s National League baseball – I have no issues with a pitcher throwing at anyone he wants, for whatever reason he wants, so long as he stands in the batters box himself and takes a retaliatory hit without charging the mound. Hamels threw at Harper then took his hit without moaning about it. If it weren’t for Mike Rizzo, everything would be settled.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:07 pm@81- you can’t even tell me THAT Harper did something wrong, let alone what it was, and why Hamels is the guy to settle things.
I’d say the “code” is a bit obscure.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:10 pm@83- I am sympathetic to this concept, but I’m unconvinced.
If you shut on my ruf
May 7th, 2012 at 7:12 pmPardon… If you shit on my rug, then clean it up… You still shit on my rug.
My point being, was the HBP a thing that needed done? Or just stupid grand standing?
May 7th, 2012 at 7:14 pmDoes anyone else feel like we’re reading the first draft of “A Few Good Men”?
May 7th, 2012 at 7:16 pm84: I don’t find those questions all that interesting, nor really relevant to whether an unwritten code exists or not.
I don’t find your assertion that an “unwritten code” might be “obscure” or administered in different ways by different people to be all that revelatory. No duh. It certainly doesn’t disprove that a non-specific and unwritten code of conduct exists among most baseball players, and they act upon it when they see fit.
I don’t know specifically why Hamels did what he did. Maybe he saw something in the previous two games and wanted to take the kid down a notch. But he did talk in the post-game interview about how he perceived Harper to be kind of a dick that needed a little lesson in the manner Mike Schmidt described. (This kind of lesson is part of what baseball players refer to as the “unwritten code.”)
After seeing Harper blow a kiss at a guy after a homerun, flip his bat so it came close to hitting a catcher and an ump, watching him race around the bases and flip his batting helmet off so his silky hair can blow in the wind like he’s Apollo… I’d be tempted to hit the guy, too.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:17 pmBrian McCann should hit 11th, and play backstop.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:18 pmBrian McCann is the worst catcher to ever open his career with six All-Star selections.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:21 pm@88, you really could have saved some time and just written “tautology” there.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:23 pm@88- So you’ll know you broke a rule when someone hits you in the spine, and John R takes to the web to call you a douchebag.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:26 pmIn the interests of allowing discussion about the actual game taking place right now, I yield.
Spike, you are right. Nobody in baseball cares about showboating, and it’s foolish to even suggest baseball players might want to police themselves over it.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:27 pmHow can something “unwritten” exist in “clear form”?
This is actually far more interesting a question that it seems. If you mapped all of homo sapien history, from dropping out of the canopy and going all “upright walker” on the savannah to splitting the atom as a 24 hour day, written language wouldn’t show up until after 11:00 PM, heading towards midnight. It’s not necessary for something to be “written” to be understood by humans.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:27 pmJeff Samardzija is some kind of ugly. But at least he’s gone all out with it.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:28 pmChip Caray is at his worst — and that’s pretty freaking bad — on long fly balls.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:31 pmYou do have to give Samardzija some credit for embracing the redneck fugly like that.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:31 pm94: Point extremely well taken. I’d have more to say on the topic but I’m gonna stick by my “I yield” from my last post.
We are winning thanks to Jason Heyward, who I love.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:33 pmOn the subject of writing and understanding, well, OK — but when it comes to the fair enforcement of rules, writing sure helps.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:34 pm@93, any argument that cites throwing a baseball at Dale Murphy as an example of it’s moral necessity is pretty flawed.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:35 pmI like Michael Bourn.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:38 pmIt’s been a while since anything illuminating has been said.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:39 pm@96 He absolutely is, but I also thought that Heyward ball was a no-doubter and was surprised when it barely cleared.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:40 pm103—The worst part of the call was at the end, when he seemed to decide that it wasn’t going to clear the fence after all, then had to awkwardly call the homer.
He’s just so, so bad.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:42 pmIn the interest of clarity and rules specificity I feel the need to write once again that I do not like Tommy Hanson. Not one little bit.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:44 pmHow come the fillies did not throw at LaHair?
May 7th, 2012 at 7:46 pmChip seems to still root for the Cubs.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:48 pmWould’ve liked to have seen Bourn trying to steal. Soto is horrible at throwing out runners.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:56 pmJohn, my point would boil down to: every team has showboats. Everybody has guys who walk halfway to first and throw their bats in the air after homers. Carlos Ruiz does it for the Phils, Juan Francisco does it on our club.
The difference with Harper seems to be a combination of “hes never done anything” and “the media has hyped the hell out of him.”
My contention is that neither of those is his problem. He should tell SI “nah, I shouldn’t be on the cover. I ain’t done nothing yet.” He should tell his agent “nah, I don’t deserve 7 million, I ain’t done nothing yet.”
He’s a rookie. Of course he’s done nothing yet.
The one thing he can do is be a good citizen. Play hard, say nothing stupid, don’t act foolish.
From where I sit, he’s done nothing wrong in the big leagues. Blowing kisses to a pitcher, flipping his bat too high, saying childish stuff on Twitter; that stuff is all minor league. It just so happened he was a minor leaguer when he did those things.
Hit him if he wrongs you. Whatever. Don’t hit him because of what you saw on Sportscenter. That makes you a douchebag.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:57 pmMay 7th, 2012 at 7:59 pm
I miss this… I miss Andruw Jones.
May 7th, 2012 at 7:59 pmWhat is the point of having Bourn if you aren’t going to run him against bad throwing catchers? I mean, I guess Fredi thinks its ok to run yourself into double caught stealings with failed squeeze attempts though. Stupid Fredi
May 7th, 2012 at 7:59 pmWhy didn’t Pastornicky break for second on pitch on a suicide? Missed sign? Happy Hanson did not pitch in Denver.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:11 pmAndruw is hitting better than still a douche FWIW
May 7th, 2012 at 8:14 pmIt’s almost as if Tommy should stop grooving first-pitch fastballs to LaHair.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:17 pmHanson just gave up a home run to a guy named LaHair. LaHair?
May 7th, 2012 at 8:18 pmNice pitch Tommy…seems like the 395 foot out on the first pitch last time wasn’t enough to keep you from throwing another first pitch meatball….
And then follow it up with a 2nd pitch meatball to Stewart. We are now in the midst of an “episode”
May 7th, 2012 at 8:19 pmSafe to say he is no longer fooling them
May 7th, 2012 at 8:20 pmFor Glavine, it was the 1st inning.
For Hanson, it has seemed to be the 4th.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:20 pmGiving up a HR to Stewart was worse. That’s the same Ian Stewart who OPS’d .464 in 2010 and .597 in 2011 while playing half his games at Coors Field.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:20 pmDang…good thing the air is thick
May 7th, 2012 at 8:20 pmSheesh
May 7th, 2012 at 8:21 pm@116 – That Lahair guy has more than anyone our team.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:22 pmHanson to A ball. As a BP tosser.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:22 pmTommy bleeping Hanson.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:24 pm@124 what should we do with hudson minor and delgado then?
May 7th, 2012 at 8:30 pmBourn should be running here
May 7th, 2012 at 8:31 pmI would write a diatribe about how you guys don’t do this to Minor, but honestly, I wish Tommy would do the talking for me.
All he needs to do is cruise through one start versus an inferior team. Just one. No disrespect to LaHair and the year he’s having.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:33 pmAlso, I’m a little late on this and I hate to bring it back up (that’s not true), but I like throwing at people. Not because I believe in baseball mannishness, but because I’m a bad person and I like dirty baseball and players duking it out for my (safe, removed) enjoyment. I’m also a hypocrite, in that I think anybody who throws at a Brave should be summarily banned and stricken from the records, while Braves pitchers should be able to throw with impunity.
I celebrate myself, and sing myself.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:34 pmTommy Hanson…Tommy “freaking” Hanson.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:36 pm@129, If you are going with Whitman, you should have gone with “Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself”
May 7th, 2012 at 8:38 pmJoe Simpson thinks Cole Hamels was wrong. Joe Simpson knows the freaking code.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:39 pm@132-
Any code that didn’t insist upon throwing at Joe Simpson’s head with the intent to maim every time he came to the plate is meaningless.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:43 pmI liked Hanson in the 94-96 mph range better.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:43 pmSee, now there is something we can all get behind.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:44 pmJoe Simpson is just mad that nobody ever cared enough to throw at him in his entire career.
Imo.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:46 pmThe braves havent realized that a wide receiver is shutting them down.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:49 pmSimpson had nine career home runs. Everyone feared him.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:49 pmInigo Montoya. Steve Berthiaume said it on Twitter, and yes, that’s who Samardzija looks like.
But, why?
May 7th, 2012 at 8:52 pmHe’s a former Notre Dame football player, so I know you could take him if you wanted to, Jason.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:59 pmI am kinda confused, guys. Hanson’s given up two runs through six innings; that’s nothing to complain about.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:59 pmDouchebaggery begets douchebaggery, and pro sports are full of douchebags. Except the teams I like.
May 7th, 2012 at 8:59 pmActually, he didn’t just say he thought Hamels was wrong — he said “I’ve never heard what he’s talking about, not that I’ve heard all the so-called “old school” stories in baseball…I’ve never heard anybody saying you’re supposed to hit some phenom rookie. I’ve never heard of that.”
May 7th, 2012 at 8:59 pm@141 He’s giving up several balls that would have gone out on any other night too. This is a weak hitting team and he’s let them take advantage of him.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:02 pmI thought he pretty clearly implied that Hamels was in the wrong — because, you know, Joe would’ve heard it if it was a thing — but maybe not.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:02 pmAnyone think that was for Tommy hitting Reed Johnson, and almost doing it again?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:03 pmI’m a lot more frustrated with the PAs against Inigo Montoya than I am with Hanson’s performance.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:03 pmRotten luck.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:04 pmUgh, what bad luck.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:04 pmSee? Samardzija is a douche and Heyward is a shining being of light.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:05 pmkinda wish heyward wasn’t still hitting 7th
May 7th, 2012 at 9:06 pmWhat precisely happened there? I see: Hinske lined into double play, first to shortstop – Heyward out at third. Do they mean out at second?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:06 pm@152, yeah, Heyward was doubled off at second.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:08 pmRight, he said it was a stupid thing to do. I just transcribed the part where he addressed this “code” issue we’ve been debating.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:10 pmReally? That’s what you get tossed for Fredi?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:11 pmYeah, I misread your comment as disagreement — my bad!
May 7th, 2012 at 9:11 pmOh look, there’s one of those completely unnecessary “warnings” against baseball players not to play baseball in a way that makes the wimpering ninnies squeamish.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:12 pmIf you’re going to hit someone intentionally, you should at least have the skill to not give up the run. Otherwise it looks really stupid.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:15 pmOh well.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:15 pmO’Flaherty:
2011: 8 earned runs (all year)
May 7th, 2012 at 9:16 pm2012: 8 earned runs (as of May 7th)
Name-calling. Congratulations on that.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:17 pmEOF is not to be trusted
May 7th, 2012 at 9:18 pmEric is really bad this year.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:18 pmIn case anyone was wondering, Durbin was warming up.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:20 pmWould say Bourn should run here but Marmol isnt close.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:25 pmThat fog is impressive.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:25 pmCOME ON FREDDIE!
May 7th, 2012 at 9:25 pmId still trade Durbin for Marmol.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:26 pmDamn…bad luck again
May 7th, 2012 at 9:27 pmWell this was informative… So, our guy hit their guy by accident, and clearly so. Then, he made the mistake of almost hitting the very same guy a second time.
Link head (or should I say, shining knight of baseball chivalry?) decides “Woah, woah, woah, one mistake was fine.. but now you’re pushing it. Ima go out and hit YOUR guy!”
But… That isn’t fair. Our guy did it on accident! But, as the prophecy has decreed, we’ve got a tough guy of our own, to go hit THEIR guy. AND THANK THE GODS WE DO, because now we get to lose the game by more, and BE REALLY TOUGH.
Kinda makes me wish they’d just thrown out the first dingleberry who hit someone in purpose, rather than waiting til it was “even” to do so.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:27 pmUUUUUUUGH.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:27 pmHere’s the part where McCann hits into a double play.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:28 pmYay! wild pitch prevents my prophecy.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:28 pmFredi will probably squeeze now
May 7th, 2012 at 9:29 pmJeez McCann.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:30 pmReal nice at bat Mac…way to come through with runners in scoring position with the bat on your shoulder
May 7th, 2012 at 9:30 pmwish chipper and jhey were not batting at the bottom of the order
May 7th, 2012 at 9:30 pmWell, crap.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmGeez.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmThat was pathetic…just f-ing pathetic.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmNot our night, I guess.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmTwo awful AB’s from McCann and Uggla there
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmHard to lay this one on the pitching.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmQuality at bats by our 4 and 5 hitters.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:31 pmYeah, I blame all the AJC followers tweeting at DOB about how amazing our offense is.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:32 pmMcCann watches a hanging slider and Uggla swings at one a foot of the plate. Nice.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:32 pmBrian McCann should hit (bench) and play (bench.)
May 7th, 2012 at 9:32 pmHard to lay this one on the pitching.
Exactly. Typical offense with Hanson on the mound.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:34 pm#187 – LOL
May 7th, 2012 at 9:34 pmWell, that ought to do it.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:38 pmDurbin!
May 7th, 2012 at 9:38 pmHow long do we have to keep throwing this guy out there?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:38 pmDurbin sucks. But we can’t blame this on Fredi because he got ejected. He’s probably down in the visitor’s clubhouse checking his fantasy teams.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:39 pm2-1 was too much to overcome tonight, anything more is just insult to injury
May 7th, 2012 at 9:39 pmIf we hadn’t hit that guy, we’d be in a one run game. If we were in a one run game, we wouldnt use Durbin. If we didn’t use Durbin, it’d still be a one run game.
But hey, we’re tough, right?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:39 pmTheyd most certainly use Durbin in a one run game.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:41 pmIt would have seemed impossible for the Braves to find someone for the No. 32 jersey who represented a downgrade from its previous occupant, but by golly, they did it.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:41 pm@170 Do you seriously believe EOF hit him on purpose?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:42 pmWhat is the Braves’ team ERA? It’s got to be ugly.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:43 pm@195: I’m impressed that of all the hypotheticals for tonight, you believe that hitting DeJesus was the single most critical play of the night contributing to the likely loss.
Are you competing in London 2012? In verbal gymnastics?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:43 pmDirtbin leads our team in appearances. Why does the last pitcher in our bullpen always have to be epically bad?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:43 pm#195: Heyward got drilled by a goofy-looking, mullet-haired dickhead for no reason. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, whether you understand it or not, baseball players will seek to even that out at their nearest opportunity.
Direct all complaints about this to baseball players everywhere. Good luck.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:43 pmSuper awesome Cole Hamels photo gallery
May 7th, 2012 at 9:44 pm#199: Coming into tonight’s game, it was 4.41. So…it’s gone up tonight.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:45 pmMaybe one day the team’s two best hitters will bat higher than 6th and 7th. And maybe one day somebody in that front office will realize that Chad Durbin has no business being on a major league roster.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:46 pm#202
That is, of course, a completely different scenario than what we were discussing.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:48 pmJust using a bit of hyperbole to illustrate how stupid it is for grown (millionaire) men to play grab ass.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:49 pm#206: I wasn’t talking about Hamels/Harper. I was talking about tonight’s game. So, yeah, it was a different scenario than we were discussing. What’s your point?
May 7th, 2012 at 9:51 pmUggla should bat 7th until he stops pulling off every single pitch. He looks as bad as he did last year.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:52 pm@202- it was some deluded version of chivalry that lead to Heywards drilling.
It’s not “code” when you do it, and “absolutely no reason” when they do it. They thought they had a reason. That’s the whole fucking point.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:52 pmYou clearly implied that some people don’t understand eye-for-an-eye, based on the lengthy debate about not understanding eye-for-a-magazine-cover.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:56 pmWell, I shall be sure to avoid offending the sophisticated sensibilities of some here when discussing future games. Words and phrases to be avoided include ‘hit’, ‘strike’, and ‘stolen base’.
For those of you in need, the fainting couch can be accessed at Alt+F4.
May 7th, 2012 at 9:59 pmIt’s getting hard to keep track of all the strawmen in this thread. There is a huge difference between suggesting that 1) players do enforce unwritten rules in the game and they are sometimes right to do so, versus thinking that 2) every possible instance where someone thought they were justified to take an action, if such justification involved the unwritten rules, must be agreeable. Beating the dead horse of 2 does absolutely nothing to disprove 1.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:01 pm#210: It’s not “the Code.” Heyward didn’t do anything to merit retribution. It’s the Cubs pitcher being a jerk.
Listen to Curt Schilling on ESPN commenting about the Harper/Hamels incident. The bottom line was, “Look, there’s a time to hit a guy when he’s done something to deserve it. Hamels didn’t have a reason to hit Harper.” I disagree. I think drilling Harper for being Harper in a “welcome to the bigs” kind of way is perfectly reasonable. Schilling and a lot of you disagree. Fine.
But my main point all along isn’t that Hamels was indisputably right to do what he did. It was merely to point out that baseball players do have a code about personal conduct on the field, whether Spike understands that or not. Schilling made that perfectly clear in his statement. As did Mike Schmidt. As did the guys on MLB.tv tonight (who, like Schilling, disagreed with Hamels while still acknowledging there are times when you have to do that kind of thing).
Same thing with Heyward. Obviously their pitcher’s idea of message pitching is faulty. He needed to be shown the error of his ways, either through a personal plunking, or through encouraging his teammates to take up the issue with him.
There’s a code. Accept it.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:01 pmJust goes to show, you stick with an argument long enough and the manhood-questioning insults eventually come out.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:04 pm#211: When have I once talked about a magazine cover? What the heck are you talking about?
May 7th, 2012 at 10:05 pmTim Kurkjian never heard of the hit the guy for being a jerk rule either.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7902128/cole-hamels-philadelphia-phillies-suspended-five-games-hitting-bryce-harper-washington-nationals
May 7th, 2012 at 10:07 pmSorry, I have a code that prevents me from explaining jokes.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:09 pmGattis with another HR. He also walked twice. He’s a Chipper injury away from getting a callup.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:09 pmA joke? Pardon me. I thought you were trying to make a point.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:14 pmHanson hit their guy HIGH in the back, and then came damn close to doing it again. Samardzija hit Heyward to say “Hey, watch it now.”
I’ll have to check my code-book from post-little league baseball, but I’m pretty sure there’s an allowance in there for a HBP to say “You better watch it.” Provided of course, the game is sufficiently close, to make that HBP costly to you, too. I don’t think you can hit him if its a blowout, that would make you a pussy.
Isn’t this situation instructional to you in anyway? With a silly “unwritten code,” OF COURSE your transgressions against me will carry more weight than mine over yours! That’s how bean-ball wars and bench clearing brawls happen!
Because it was fair when I did it, but you took it too far; because I was just evening the score, and you had to have the last word.
Wouldn’t it be better to do the thing that is mist helpful to your actual cause; the actual purpose of your job, that supports your family? Shouldn’t you just NOT give free base runners, and BEAT HIM as your revenge?
May 7th, 2012 at 10:14 pmI read Jonah Keri’s “The Extra 2%” over the weekend. Couldn’t help but think how far the Braves lag behind in every single facet that has made the Rays a succes — ownership, front office, game management.
Frank Wren’s idea of value is Chad Durbin.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:14 pmIt’s lost on you, and I accept that.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:15 pm#219 – Doubt it. Fransisco would get the job and they would call up Constanza. Fredi loves him.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:15 pm#217: Here’s an objective take on the matter that doesn’t include your special brand of obtuseness:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/story/2012-05-07/Bryce-Harper-Cole-Hamels/54819018/1
Here’s an excerpt:
“Hamels didn’t need to explain he was enforcing his interpretation of the game’s unwritten rules, a traditional and generally accepted code understood by players, managers and umpires.
“This is the Code at its deepest and most ingrained levels” says Jason Turbow, who authored The Baseball Codes and maintains a website to discuss events such as Sunday’s. “It is the confluence of ability and pride and hype and the concept that all men must earn their successes.”
Sunday’s showdown is the talk of baseball for the moment, a collision of tradition and modern sensibilities. Unlike their predecessors, today’s players know following the code means risking suspensions and fines .
With that backdrop, the most shocking part of the events to baseball folks was that Hamels did own up to it. All you would have gotten from such veteran hard-throwers such as Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens was an icy glare.”
“I remember coming up to the plate,” said Snow, now a special assistant for the San Francisco Giants who was hitting .408 with six home runs after his first 15 games for the California Angels. “Clemens threw a fastball over my head. I didn’t say anything. I just watched him come halfway toward the plate, get a new ball from the umpire, and he smiled. That was old school.”
It seemed to have its desired effect. Snow hit .108 over the next six weeks and was demoted to the minor leagues.”
It goes on to say that, to his credit, Harper had the last word against Hamels. Fair enough. Hamels won the game, but Harper did win that showdown. Good for him, I suppose. Maybe all this discussion will encourage him that his game is good enough, and to capitalize on all the attention by changing his behavior.
But for crying out loud quit refusing to insist this kind of thing hasn’t been a part of the unspoken language of baseball. That’s all I want out of you people, just to acknowledge that. I’m not asking you to agree with Hamels, or to denounce Harper. Just understand that this is how major leaguers in the aggregate behave and deal with it on those terms. Quit the denialist games.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:20 pmYou left out the money quote.
FTA – Not so fast, says Snow: “Hamels was trying to prove that he was old school and tough, and then he comes out admits what he did. All he proved is he’s not old-school.”
May 7th, 2012 at 10:26 pm#221: “Wouldn’t it be better to do the thing that is mist helpful to your actual cause; the actual purpose of your job, that supports your family? Shouldn’t you just NOT give free base runners, and BEAT HIM as your revenge?”
In an ideal world, sure. But sending a message through winning the game is not always an option.
Let’s say you’re facing Bryce Harper and in his first at bat, he hits a homer and blows a kiss at your pitcher as he crosses home plate.
As manager, you say, let’s ignore this and just beat him.
But in his second at bat, he hits another homer and blows another kiss. You’re down 4-0 by now and things aren’t looking good.
By his third AB, your offense is showing no life, and Harper hits a third home run. He stands in the batter’s box, says, “Whoo, lookit that! Aint’ that something!” Then takes a minute-and-a-half to touch home, then blows another kiss.
Your guys have shown admirable restraint, but now you’re losing 7-0 on a trio of Bryce Harper home runs where he has also completely shown you up on the field with his antics.
What do you do? Do you drill him in his last AB? Try and send a message to him and to your players and fans watching the game? Or do you tell your team, “No, we’ll try and beat ‘em again tomorrow. That’s how we come out on top!” But if you choose the latter, what if you lose again? With even more Harper showboating punctuating the misery?
When do you do something to put the guy in his place? Actually, it’s probably too late by now. He’s already made you look like his bitch.
Drilling guys is an imperfect way to keep them in check. But sometimes it’s the best option available to keep your team’s self-respect in play.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:28 pmWhat do you do?
Pull your ass for a decent pitcher.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:32 pm#226: You’re absolutely right. Gibson, Ryan and Clemens never admitted it. In that, Snow is correct in pointing out the contrast.
I left out Gary Sheffield’s extensive comments, which were a joy to read since I cited him as someone who started out a douche but got his mind right:
But home runs at the major league level may not make the purpose pitches disappear. Gary Sheffield, a nine-time All-Star, said he — and others around the game — noticed when Harper flipped his helmet off his head on his first major league hit.
Like Harper, Sheffield was a 19-year-old rookie, and recalls staring at the ground after responding to a Nolan Ryan brushback pitch by hitting a double.
“I’m pretty sure over time, he’ll calm down,” Sheffield said. “But I think he’ll keep getting hit for awhile. Pitchers have got to make sure they establish their presence, too. You don’t want a young kid hanging out over the plate. … I think the only way to handle it is what he did. You can’t start chirping. If you do, you only make it worse.”
That’s more of the code: Nothing demonstrative when you strike out a batter. The same goes when you hit a home run, or you can count on just what Harper got from Hamels your next time up.
There’s a Code. Spike, just admit it. Admit. It.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:33 pmThat is a compelling argument that Hamels did it for a reason. But nobody disputes that he did it for a reason. Your original point was that it was an enforcement of sportsmanship, but it wasn’t. The dividing line between earned arrogance and unearned arrogance isn’t sportmanship, it’s membership. Hamels saying “you’re not one of us quite yet” is an initiation rite. But that is not sportsmanship, and not even those defending or explaining his actions are claiming that it is. Only you are doing that, and that remains the crux of my disagreement with you, regardless of what rabbit holes you may have gone down with anybody else here.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:35 pm@230- exactly.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:39 pm@229, One that noted denialists Chad Billingsley, Chris Capuano, Trevor Cahill, Joe Saunders, Ian Kennedy, and Vance Worley didn’t see fit to enforce apparently.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:43 pm#230: Exhibiting “earned arrogance” is being a good sport? So you can be arrogant and disrespectful towards opposing players as long as you go through a sustained period of showing respect for the game and opposing players? Who matches that career arc? Isn’t it usually the other way around? Isn’t that how some people are defending Harper? That he’s an arrogant jerk now, but he’s only 19 and he’ll mature on his own and stop being obnoxious, so we don’t need opposing pitchers to enforce this “Code” that you’ve made up out of whole cloth anyway?
Methinks you’re playing semantics with me.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:44 pmHas anyone actually argued against the existence of a “code”? I think the argument is more “appropriateness of beaning.”
But I haven’t been following that closely on the grounds of apathy.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:46 pm#232: Because they didn’t choose to drill Harper in the manner Hamels did doesn’t mean they are “Code deniers”. Again with a strawman argument.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:47 pm#234: Yeah, Spike’s been pretty insistent that there’s no Code because of what Harper’s GM said, what a player nobody’s ever heard of said, and what a baseball writer said. Pretty maddening.
But you’re right: Out of respect for others’ apathy and annoyance, I’m done. It’s bed time.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:49 pm@236, please point to a single example of where I claimed there was no code. And 234 is referring to your shifting the argument, but I will leave that to it’s author to amplify, if he chooses to. And the other pitchers not throwing at him is no strawman. If this Code is so universally understood, how is it that it took 8 games and Cole Hamels to “welcome him to the big leagues”? Your logic fails on conversality.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:56 pmwhat a player nobody’s ever heard of said
Your ridicule of the opinions of those who have actually participated in that which you are speculating on is duly noted.
May 7th, 2012 at 10:59 pmDon’t stop on my account. My apathy concerns the subject of the debate, not the outcome.
May 7th, 2012 at 11:00 pmI’ll bow out as well. My last word, while we’re questioning sources, would be to say that a guy who wrote a book called The Baseball Codes might be behooved to pipe up and say “This is it! This is the code that I discuss in my book The Baseball Codes!!”
May 7th, 2012 at 11:08 pmHEY I HAVE AN IDEA, STOP BLABBERING ABOUT THE FUCKING HAMELS/HARPER INCIDENT.
May 8th, 2012 at 7:17 amRecapped.
May 8th, 2012 at 7:40 am