16 Nov
If there were any Marlins fans, they’d be so pissed right now
The Braves have officially traded for Dan Uggla, no Furcal rule in order because we have a press release. This is not a shock, considering that rumors have been flying the last couple of days, but what the Marlins got is shocking: Omar Infante and Michael Dunn. If there were any Marlins fans, they would have to wonder why one of their best players, coming off of a 30-homer season, is worth only a utility infielder and a budding LOOGY. And to a division rival, no less. Wow.
Uggla is probably a one-year rental, but he’s the righthanded power hitter we were looking for. The defense gets even shakier, and Prado has to move to left field. But Uggla for that?
I agree the deal was highway robbery. But Prado in LF… hmm. Is it possible that Prado could now be the centerpiece of a new deal? Like to St. Louis?
November 16th, 2010 at 6:06 pmWho makes the roster as the backup SS?
November 16th, 2010 at 6:08 pmIt makes sense to the Marlins. They’re looking at an arbitration award of over $10 million for ONE PLAYER. That’s against their corporate philosophy.
An All-Star second baseman for $2.5 million and a disposable LOOGY is much more their speed.
I love it for the Braves. Whatever Uggla ends up being paid, it’s going to be a discount, and this team really needs a discounted RH power bat.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:09 pmSo now do we wait for Wren to turn Proctor and Diory into Kemp?
November 16th, 2010 at 6:09 pmI don’t like Prado in left field.
i.e., I hope Chipper retires.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:11 pmI’M PUMPED! i love uggla and he’ll look great in the middle of our order. i bet prado becomes the super-utility player once again roaming between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and left field, depending on who’s hurt or who needs a day off.
now….sign andruw, sell kawakami to japan, and trade alex gonzalez for jj hardy.
a great, early start to an offseason!
November 16th, 2010 at 6:11 pmIf Wren weren’t such a shitty GM, he’d have traded Proctor and Diory for Kemp already.
I’m really not happy about moving Martin around so much. He really came into his own as a hitter last year, and it’s just harder to hit when you’re never sure which glove you’re going to wear. But I guess there’s nothing else we can do.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:11 pmNot to be a downer, but doesn’t this actually hurt our chances at acquiring Upton? Assuming we have ~$16-$18 mil, we’re going to be using a net of ~$8 mil of that on Uggla ($10 mil in arb – Infante’s $2 mil). That leaves $8-$10 to spend on arb raises and a RHRP. Not impossible, but how much is LM/Wren going to want to “save for midseason acquisitions”?
Unless we’re planning on trading one of our arb eligible players? Like JJ? For Upton?
Also, here’s the crow I’m eating with regards to not being able to wait until you can fleece someone:
.————-.
| lolmarlins |
|/———–’
.-. ,-.
;oo oo;
/ | |/
|. `. .’ .|
`;.;’ `;.;’
.-^-. .-^-.
Meh the ASCII doesn’t work so well once posted, but oh well.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:12 pmI’ll just repost my thoughts since I’m too slow at typing and/or reading and refreshing.
This is quite the surprising trade to me. I’m pretty excited about having Uggla hit homers with Braves on the bases.
As sad as we can be about losing Infante, we have to remember that there’s a real possibility that he’ll regress to a season of hitting like utility man-Omar rather than All Star-Omar.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:12 pmI’m just glad the team had the money for it. It would suck to have a deal like this come along and be over budget.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:13 pmI’m assuming this also takes away Diaz’s roster spot. That’s another $2.5M to put towards Uggla
November 16th, 2010 at 6:14 pm@8: I wouldn’t worry about how this applies to Upton–that was mostly just fodder anyways.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:14 pmThat said, Wren said the Braves are now going to focus solely on the bench and bullpen depth… so I don’t know. Prado in LF and McLouth in CF will be an awful, awful outfield, and Uggla will worsen the infield defense, so my hope is that Wren is not yet done.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:14 pmAssuming Sanchez gets an arb award larger than $2.5 mil, Omar has a good shot at being the fourth highest paid player on the team next year, after Hanley, Josh Johnson, and Sanchez. That’s insane.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:16 pmWell lets see .. how about a lineup
Prado – 2b
Heyward – RF
Uggla – LF
McCann – C
Chipper – 3B
Freeman – 1B
Gonzalez – ss
McClouth – CF
I LIKE IT !!!
November 16th, 2010 at 6:18 pmI hate to lose Omar.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:18 pm@15, I doubt Prado’s staying at second. Uggla’s never played anywhere else in the bigs. Prado’s probably destined for LF, moving to 3B when Chipper’s resting or hurt.
Prado will only be at second for interleague away games.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:20 pm#17 – Uggla cant be any worse playing LF than Diaz ….
November 16th, 2010 at 6:22 pm30 dingers for a backup MI and a LOOGY?! Wow. Great job, Frank.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:22 pmA solid backup short stop will be easy to find. Maybe we can use the prospects we were going to use to find an upgrade at short?
November 16th, 2010 at 6:23 pmUggla has refused in the past to move to 3B, and the team has already announced that he’ll play 2B. Thank goodness that Freeman is so good defensively, because the infield, which we need to help guys like Hudson and Lowe, is going to be worse.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:23 pmWow. The recession has hit everywhere. Even one year rentals use to cost more than that.
Would like there to be a blog wide policy on Uggla puns going forward though. Three per game thread?
November 16th, 2010 at 6:27 pmAnd if Uggla signs as a free agent after next season, the Braves get two first-round draft picks, right?
My father-in-law in Fort Lauderdale is going to be so pissed!
Go, Braves!
November 16th, 2010 at 6:30 pmIf you can get Dan Uggla for Infante and Dunn, then hell why not do it? Figure out who plays where and who the backup shortstop is later.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:31 pmWe can find a late inning defensive replacement for Uggla. He will come into the game when we are up 8-4.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:31 pmI’m liking how our offense is stacking up. Worried about defense.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:31 pmI’m going to be pretty bummed if that’s really the only big (read: non-bench/bullpen) move we make.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:32 pmWhat did I say I’d trade for Uggla in the last thread?
I can’t even remember now. All I know is that we got Uggla for less.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:35 pmHe might hit 40 home runs by getting out of that park.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:36 pmPlus there is the fact the Marlins have lost their “Brave Bashers” By getting Uggla and Ross in San Fran, that might be worth 7-8 wins
November 16th, 2010 at 6:40 pm@27: I guarantee you it will be. We just upped our payroll what is likely about $9 million. We’ll add a veteran to the bullpen and maybe we’ll try to re-sign Hinske. We’ll non-tender Diaz, and that’s probably about it.
Ladies and Gentleman, your 2011 Atlanta Braves:
mccann
freeman
uggla
chipper
agonzalez
prado
mcclouth
heyward
mather
ross
conrad
*hernandez/hicks/backup SS
*schafer/hinske/4th OF
hudson
lowe
jurrjens
hanson
minor/beachy
venters
November 16th, 2010 at 6:49 pmkimbrel
proctor
o’flaherty
moylan
*martinez
*beachy/marek/veteran FA addition
Prado
November 16th, 2010 at 6:50 pmHeyward
Chipper
McCann
Uggla
Freeman
AAG
McLouth
wow… I hate to see Infante go, but this was probably selling high at its finest… everybody else has made the points to be made. Heckuva job Wreny
November 16th, 2010 at 6:51 pmCrasnick said Marlins asked for Prado and the Braves told them to go ride one.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:53 pm@33
I like to think it went something like this:
Marlins: Okay, so no on Heyward? How about Prado?
Wren: *Several minutes of loud, obnoxious guffawing* No, but seriously. We’ll let you have Infante. He was an All-Star you know.
Marlins: Yes sir.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:56 pmI like this deal. I will like it even more if we go get Upton.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:00 pmTeheran, AGony, and Bethancourt for Upton and Drew, IMO.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:01 pmChip’s calling the Dawgs game. Sigh.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:02 pmReading between the lines of Wren’s comments, I believe the Braves are DONE aquiring big bats.
“Any time you can make things happen early, [you benefit],” Wren said. “Last year, we were able to get our bullpen fixed early so that we could focus on other things. Now, we can focus on smaller pieces of the team.
So no Upton etc. Never a realistic possibility IMHO anyway.
I still like Adam Dunn a lot though.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:04 pmPlease, Fredi, find some way to make Uggla play left and Prado second.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:08 pmBest thing about this deal: No more stupid “His name is DAAAN UGGLAAA”s.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:10 pmSeriously, does anyone have any idea how Robert will manage to complain about Frank Wren making this deal? I’m pretty much resigned to just being surprised.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:14 pmI can’t believe we got a right handed power bat, and didn’t significantly alter the make up of this club. No starting pitcher moved, no regular position player, not even a PROSPECT.
Not to completely discount what Infante provided to this team, but seriously. There are 4 starting pitchers, 6 position players, and 1 bench player (Dave Ross) that I’d say are more instrumental parts of this team. Mike Dunn was probably the 21st most useful guy.
Wow.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:14 pmOmar Infante was his kid’s favorite player and now he’s heartbroken and how could Wren be such a monster.
I have $10 on that or some variation.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:15 pmOf course, this is awesome. Bench doesn’t look so hot without Infante and Diaz and with Hernandez and Mather, but you gotta take care of the starters first I guess. I sure hope Prado can play left.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:16 pmsince Dan Uggla and Cody Ross seemed to be the ones to beat us last year, the Marlins will be pure fodder for us this year.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:20 pmThe bench is dead, long live the bench.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:20 pmGood luck to Omar. I’ll miss him, but at least the Braves have another chin-strap-wearing Venezuelan middle infielder in the starting lineup.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:22 pmI think the Braves could very well extend Uggla, but we’ll see. Usually we are having to convince ourselves that the deal was actually a good one. This seems like that McGriff deal. I know this game can go on and on, but how much better does this make the Vazquez and Ascanio deals?
seriously, go get BJ Upton or Matt Kemp and let Nate ride the bench. Give most of Nate’s 2012 salary to an Uggla extension
November 16th, 2010 at 7:24 pmNice job, Birdman. I still want a Christmas present though.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:27 pmWow. Boy did I ever miss how much Uggla’s contract status had devalued him. I’m eating crow too. I just got done posting in the last thread about how there were no old fashion salary dumps. I forgot about how stingy the Marlins are.
This makes sense. Give Frank Wren lots of kudos for:
1. Convincing ownership to take on the salary.
2. Keeping our CCYP and our pitching suspects.
3. Taking advantage of Martin Prado’s versatility.
4. Correctly reading the tea leaves that Florida was ready to dump Uggla once he turned down the 48 million.
5. Leveraging Omar’s terrific season so that Florida feels like they are getting a good 2B back in the deal.
Folks will blast Florida’s management for this deal but I get it. Until the Marlin’s stadium is built they have revenue challenges. When it was evident that Uggla was going to test the FA waters next season they decided to cut bait and save the arbitration dollars. I hate Jeff Loria as much as the next guy but they run a very efficient operation and always seem to be competitive just when you think that they are down and out. They retain a nice nucleus of players and with a couple of career years they could scare some folks in the NL East.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:29 pmNot to be a downer csg but outside of filling up the bench and bullpen I think we are done. I doubt that there is much wiggle room in the payroll. Also I think that Wren noticed that the SF Giants just won a world series with 4 homegrown pitchers. It justifies Next Adam Wainwright Syndrome.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:38 pmI have slowly, quietly come to grips with the fact that Diaz isn’t going to be here, next season. If he signs with Philadelphia, though, I am going to need some serious consoling. The thought … ugh.
Anyway, about the rest of the roster, I assume Hinske will be re-signed. I assume we’ll sign or trade for a better back-up SS than Diory. So, the bench probably looks like Hinske, Ross, Mather, [Backup SS], and who? Conrad? Canizares?
It would be so nice to make another big trade for, say, BJ Upton, and make McLouth that last (albeit expensive) bench member. We really ought to have enough room in the budget for that (and the back-up SS and a veteran right-handed reliever) and enough in the way of non-Teheran prospects to make a deal work, especially if the rumors about Upton’s low-ish price are to be believed.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:38 pmAnother bigtime OF is out of the question unless he either plays CF, or Prado is a big part of the package. And option B kills your (cheap and really good) Chipper insurance.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:44 pmAlso, for the record, I really don’t want to sign Uggla to an extension, unless it’s of the Infante-and-Dunn-for-Uggla variety, as far as advantage to the Braves. Somehow, I doubt he’s as dumb as his former employer.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:49 pm#52 – I dont know about that. If they dont keep Diaz around and if they get some of KK’s payroll cleared out they could afford a Kemp/Upton in CF. I dont think Prado is going anywhere.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:54 pmHi, I’m Dan Uggla…
November 16th, 2010 at 7:56 pmActually, this could have been a good deal in a baseball sense for the Marlins if they had used the money to go after a Crawford/Werth guy instead of spending it on Buck.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:57 pmin all likelihood, the braves still have 6-7 million dollars to fill the roster out. if kawakami gets sold back to japan, it could increase back to 10. there’s still hope of getting a center fielder. with 4 roster spots left and 2 of them being of the bench variety, there’s still hope for my fantasy:
alex gonzalez for jj hardy (+5 million)
November 16th, 2010 at 8:00 pmandruw jones (+2 million)
fill out the rest of the roster with…whatever.
clint barmes will be signed by the braves and will become a super utility all-star, following the footsteps of omar infante.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:02 pmellsbury would be a good addition now
November 16th, 2010 at 8:04 pmI don’t see Ellsbury anymore. Braves are going to give McLouth a chance. He makes too much money not to
November 16th, 2010 at 8:11 pmGeez, Wren sucks man. What is he thinking? We actually had to deal Omar AND Dunn to get Uggla?
Honestly guys, the Braves would never get Upton. Wren would never trade away our top pitching prospects. So, don’t dream about it. Uggla is alreay a dream come true for Wren. How on earth did that happen?
We have actually got the hardest part of the offseason done in acquiring that righthanded power bat. Way to go Frank! But hey, you still suck, that’s what lots of people here say!
Oh yeah, the Braves defense would be awful. Unless Wren can turn Nate + Delgado to Rasmus. Now, that would be awesome.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:12 pmChip is much better doing college basketball, imo. But I thought I was done with him until the start of the season…
November 16th, 2010 at 8:25 pmWhat about Mike Cameron. Red Sox will likely move him and eat money. Might as well be to us.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:26 pmCount me in as a big fan of the Uggla trade.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:26 pmUggla hit the last home run in Shea Stadium
November 16th, 2010 at 8:30 pmSOMEWHERE…
Fredi Gonzalez is not only laughing his head off, but getting quite drunk doing it.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:44 pmSome tidbits from DOB on possible Uggla extension and bench….
“We went into this knowing somewhat what his [salary] expectations are, based on the media reports,” Wren said. “We go into this with an open mind and see how it goes. It’s not a subject for today. Once he gets over here and we get a chance to know him and he gets to know us, then we’ll proceed with [extension discussions].”
The Braves’ offseason top priority was adding a right-handed power hitter, and Wren didn’t know if they’d be able to do it without giving up any of their top young pitchers or elite pitching prospects. They were able to pull it off, getting Uggla without giving up any of their starting pitchers or relievers Craig Kimrel or Jonny Venters.
Losing Infante hurts the Braves’ bench, and the Braves hope to re-sign free agent outfielder/pinch-hitter Eric Hinske and possibly outfielder Matt Diaz. Wren said they might be able to pick up the slack of Infante’s loss with the recent addition of corner infielder-outfielder Joe Mather, claimed off waivers from St. Louis.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:47 pm59—What’s with the persistent Andruw Jones thing? He can’t play center anymore. We have Mather and, technically, Diaz. I don’t get it.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:48 pmAccording to Wiki, Uggla means “owl” in Swedish and his is a surname of Swedish nobility. (OK, because in English, it certainly means something else.)
Anyway, he’s a Southern guy (Kentucky/Tennessee) & it says he’s always been good with the media (doesn’t hurt).
Welcome aboard, Dan.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:54 pm@69 Diory and Brooksy will be our backup infielders next season.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:55 pmDan Uggla splits:
.253/.350/.454 vs. lefties (.348 wOBA)
.267/.349/.498 vs. righties (.364 wOBA)
I point this out if only to suggest that our new “right-handed power bat” hits righties better than lefties, which sort of defeats the purpose of labeling his handedness.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:02 pm@72
Bet we make a move to avoid that
November 16th, 2010 at 9:06 pmIf Hinske can play third, it might make Brooks superfluous, assuming Mather is here to stay. Prado slides to second if Uggla goes down and there is a nice platoon backup at third. Keeps Diaz as a better RH bench bat/OF as well.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:06 pm#73 – well in 2010, that may have changed
vs LH
.306/.409/.575/.983
away
.308/.380/.548/.928
turner field
November 16th, 2010 at 9:07 pm.343/.378/.629/1.007
I’m not surprised that it seems this might be the major move of the offseason, but I am a bit disappointed. We have so much pitching, there’s got to be someone who wants some of it.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:08 pmPrado
November 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pmHeyward
Jones
Uggla
McCann
BJ Upton
Freeman
Gonzalez
@78 Be still my beating heart.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pm@77 Why do you want to trade pitching prospects so much? I don’t want to see another Wainwright/Feliz. Besides, Lowe and Huddy will be gone in two years. Hanson and JJ will become expensive. We will need every single one of our pitching prospects sooner than you think.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:16 pmChipper
Justin Upton
Heyward
Uggla
McCann
Prado
Freeman
Gonzalez purposefully left off because he sucks. A lot.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:17 pmIf we can somehow bat AAG 8th, I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:22 pmMove Chipper to the #2 spot.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:28 pmI’d rather bat Freeman 8th and let him actually take a walk, because Gonzalez’s grandmother told him an ancient Venezuelan folktale that stated for every walk he takes he will spend a year in hell. He’s been doing everything possible to avoid them ever since.
AAG sucks. I think I may tattoo it on my chest.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:29 pmPrado
Heyward
Chipper
McCann
Uggla
Freeman
AAG
Nate
I think this is what Wren has in mind. We can dream about the Uptons all we want, but that’s not going to happen.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:38 pm41 — Don’t you think Chip’s already been practicing that one?
Move Chipper to 2nd in the order.
Worried about defense, but definitely like the move.
Another big move would be awesome too.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:40 pm@85
The Marlins trading Uggla to the Braves for a reasonable price was never going to happen either. Let alone an absurd price (for the Marlins).
You can’t count on that happening again, especially since Upton and Uggla are in very different stages with regards to contract status, but I think there should be a 3-day grace period where nobody is allowed to say “never going to happen.”
November 16th, 2010 at 9:43 pm81- Justin Upton’s out. The only hole is CF unless they think McLouth is the answer.
JJ for Kemp would be ideal. After looking at relievers, Grant Balfour stands out as someone who would could be a feasible addition.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:45 pm@77 Love that. Owls are some of our favorite guests around here.
Hoo-dee-hoo.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:53 pmAs a local Rays fan, I have to say that BJ Upton is a total douche bag. Hearing him talk nightly on local sports talk radio and news stations makes me hate him with a passion. He’s the TO/Moss/Manny type without the talent. As my favorite local guy said, he’s got “five tool talent and one and a half tool production”. If we couldn’t handle Andruw never putting it together, Upton will be the new Braves Journal Whipping Boy by May. Count it.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:54 pm88—IIRC, Balfour is Type-A.
November 16th, 2010 at 9:55 pm@91 maybe a sign and trade.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:02 pm@87 It’s good work by Wren. Getting Uggla at that price is not supposed to happen. That’s why I absolutely think Wren is great. I have no clue why some of you guys think he sucks.
The moment he traded away Frenchy, I know he is good.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:04 pm@80 You don’t hesitate to trade away one of the prospects for a good outfielder just because of the 1 in a million chance they end up being awesome.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:11 pm91- Good point. In that case, there are probably better options.
CF’s tough. Wonder what it would take to get Brett Gardner from the Yankees? Kemp, BJ Upton, Jacoby Ellsbury…it’s too bad we couldn’t have gotten Maybin included.
I do know that McLouth and Joe Mather don’t inspire confidence, so I hope Wren’s got something else up his sleeve.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:16 pmWe really still need an outfielder. Kemp, Upton, Rasmus…someone else who is at least competent besides Heyward.
Plus, not that we have the power hitter….would it kill us to get a little speed?
November 16th, 2010 at 10:21 pmI don’t understand why people are still finding reasons to be negative nancy’s right now. I really don’t get you people.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:36 pmdid Nate McLouth have the worst season of any major league player this decade?
.190/.298/.322/.620 -14.3UZR -1.3WAR -$5Mil value
can you find worse? Larry Parrish has his hands full
November 16th, 2010 at 10:41 pmIf Upton never puts it together in the same way Andruw never put it together, that’s a heartburn I’d gladly stomach. He may never tap his full potential, but he’s a decent player as it is, and he’s still not that far off from being really really good. He almost certainly won’t reach his full potential in Tampa. I have no problem with going after him — as long as the price is modest. If his being a jerk lowers the price a bit, so much the better. I think we can handle him.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:49 pm@94 If you know they are good, it’s not one in a million chance. Perhaps we should have trade away Hanson when he was in the minor.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:50 pmcsg, it doesn’t really count because they weren’t full seasons, but in 2008, Abraham “Corky” Miller hit .083/.152/.133 in 67 plate appearances, and in 2009, Greg Norton hit .145/.330/.171 in 97 plate appearances. Compared to them, Nate McLouth almost appeared like someone who belonged in organized baseball.
I’m not sure if that gilds the lily quite enough for you, though.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:55 pm@90 Andruw did put it together for couple seasons. He is what he is. He is just not Willie Mays.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:56 pm@94 Just to be concise, I have no problem trading Delgado or Minor. I just have lots of problem people throwing Teheran’s name out there like he is just another pitching prospect.
That kid will be better than both JJ and Hanson.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:58 pmI was a little concerned about this trade at first when I thought that Uggla would only be a one year rental. After considering that Infante in effect would be a one year rental if we kept him, I see very little to complain about with this trade.
I had the feeling all along that Infante would not be a backup this year. I knew he would either start in left or be traded. If this is Chipper’s last year we should have some extra money to sign Uggla long term for 2012 and beyond.
We need some good glove guys now. I like Hinske, but we need some guys who can play defense. I also like Diaz a lot, but we actually may have a surplus of right handed bats, especially if we find a way to fit in Canizares. One of the strongest parts of our team last year was our bench. We have a long way to go in that area at this point.
November 16th, 2010 at 11:03 pm103- Unless he’s not, or he gets hurt. He wouldn’t be the first or the last or even the best.
November 16th, 2010 at 11:21 pm@103 I wouldn’t trade Teheran either, trust me.
November 16th, 2010 at 11:28 pmWent to bed hoping that the rumors that the Braves might be after Justin Upton were true…Woke up and Wren makes this nice deal for Uggla. I like the idea that Wren probably sold Infante (and possibly Dunn) at peak value. Trading Dunn (because of o’Flaherty) was dealing from a position of strength and we kept our key prospects. Looking further ahead, the Braves will be able to either sign Ugla or offer him arbitration and get prospects…..Yeah, I like this deal.
Well done, Frank Wren!
November 16th, 2010 at 11:29 pmGiven the Fish’s maddening of the Braves for…EVER. Just b/c we get rid of one nightmare (Uggs)…look at how the Braves offcast Smelms has hurt us.
Infante is going to kill us. Time and time again.
November 16th, 2010 at 11:37 pm@105 Then Ethan, it comes back to my point that we should trade any single pitching prospect available. Under that logic, what’s the point of keep any?
November 16th, 2010 at 11:38 pmI just read on braves.com that we traded Omar Infante and Mike Dunn for Dan Uggla. Bowman’s typos are getting out of hand.
November 16th, 2010 at 11:48 pmI’ve got a friend who is really unhappy with the trade (I’m looking at you DV!) He’s talking about it hurting the defense a lot, not being good for the future, hurts the team in the long-haul, etc. However, he was a fan of Infante (but really, who wasn’t?), and Yunel was his favorite player going into the season. He has been upset at Wren since the Yunel trade. It wouldn’t matter if Wren actually COULD turn Proctor and Diory into Matt Kemp, my friend would complain.
So yea, there are fans (or just one fan, maybe) who are really upset with the trade.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:01 amI’m not saying we should trade Teheran, but everyone has a value. Teheran’s is insanely high, but as a player who has never pitched an inning in the majors, there’s no way he should be considered the most valuable player in baseball, which (at least to me) is what your “untouchable” tag implies.
Prospects are like lottery tickets. Some of them pay out, some don’t, and some have better odds than others. However, the more you have, the better the chances you hit on one. I think we all know that Teheran’s ceiling is almost limitless, but his ascendance isn’t guaranteed. If you can make your ball club better by trading him , it’s stupid not to.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:14 amI view the Escobar trade as being more Bobby’s doing than Wren’s. Even if its not true, it’s just how I cope with it and keep myself from hating Wren who’s been a great GM otherwise.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:17 am#111
Well, we were a terrible defense last year & we didn’t exactly just acquire Bill Mazeroski (or Roberto Alomar).
But I’ll take the homers, sure.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:22 amYour friend is crazy. This doesn’t hurt our team at all in the long run. Venters is crazy better than Dunn, and Infante is a super-utility player. Getting Dan Uggla for that price is almost embarrassing. Plus the 2 draft picks we’ll get if he doesn’t resign with us next year.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:24 amI actually liked the Escobar trade–I think the Braves got quite a bit in return. Yes, it would not have happened without Bobby, but Escobar’s performance in the first half of 2010 had a lot to do with it as well….
November 17th, 2010 at 12:25 am@112 For Justin Upton? No thank you. At least for me. We can trade prospects, but not the premium ones. I put Teheran in the Heyward category and Delgado in the Freeman category. As I said, I don’t mind trading Delgado or Minor, but I am keeping Teheran no matter what. I don’t care if it’s Buster Posey or Bruan or Longoria.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:28 amI have a question to ask everybody, if it was Infante and Jonny Venters going the other way instead of Dunn would you still have done the trade ? I would have.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:31 am@115 Speaking of trading prospects, I do value prospects, but if someone is upset because of trading Dunn away for freaking Uggla…then I am speechless.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:31 am@90 – thanks, Rob. Someone with some local perspective finally confirmed my fears.
Uggla’s good relationship with Fredi and his clear career path with the Braves makes re-signing him more likely than not.
Love the trade. Imagine this against lefties:
Prado – 1B
Chipper – 3B (he’s a #2 hitter now)
Heyward – RF
Uggla – 2B
McCann – C
Diaz – LF
Gonzalez – SS
McLouth (if we must) – CF
Me likey.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:33 amI’m happy with the trade, but I wish Hubbard hadn’t been let go. Uggla could use a mentor at 2B.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:56 amJJ3bagger, I would have done it, just because I’m a little worried Bobby may have shredded Jonny’s arm the way he did to Blaine Boyer. But hey, relievers are fungible, there’s more where that came from, and Roger McDowell is really good.
The difference between Dunn and Venters is: Dunn’s absolute ceiling is pretty much where Venters is right now. But relievers are usually only at their peak effectiveness for a few seasons before breaking down. So I’m super-happy that we still have Jonny, but I’d never consider him untouchable.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:07 am@122 I guess we can always refer to Sori/Gonzo for reference when dealing with relieve pitchers. You never know when they will be healthy and you never know when they will peak.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:46 amI’ve been seeing alot of people throwing out the idea of Chipper batting second. I mean he gets on base, but he’s slower than molasses and is coming off of a knee injury, I guess that will make him slower than molasses. I agree that he can’t be our three hitter any more, but I don’t think he makes any more sense batting second. If Wren’s not done adding pieces and we get a speedy CF I’d go something like this
L Denard Span (I can dream)
R Prado
L Heyward
R Uggla
L McCann
S Chipper
L Freeman/Mather/Canizarez
R Gonzalez
If we can’t get a speedy OF to lead off then I’d be fine with moving everyone up a spot and batting our other outfielder 8th. I’m also fine with flipping McCann and Chip. The real key for this lineup is keeping Nate McLouth out of the mix as much as possible.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:46 amAlex, I agree about Venters, I think there’s a pretty realistic chance that he is Blaine Boyer. That leads me to the next thing that had me wondering about this trade, did the Marlins ask for Venters and Wren said no, or did they actually prefer Dunn to Venters ? The more I look at this trade from the Marlins point of view, the less I understand it for them. I can’t believe they couldn’t have gotten Infante, Venters, and at least one JJ Hoover/Beachy type prospect. I wouldn’t have even minded that.
The other thing about this trade that I think has been undersold is that Uggla is going to be a Type A FA if he leaves after one year anyway. There’s a decent chance that two compensatory picks are going to turn out to be better than Infante and Dunn, which makes it even more baffling from the Marlins point of view for me.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:11 amI think the Marlins want to do a deal now so that they can start doing other things, and the only team which is willing to take on $10M NOW is the Braves.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:03 am@124 chipper is really not that slow. he doesnt bust ass down the line, but he’s not slow. now, after knee surgery, that might be a different story.
@120
November 17th, 2010 at 7:52 ami dont think wren’s done yet, but mclouth might already have a platoon partner in mather.
#125 – This trade is an old fashioned salary dump. From the Marlins perspective dumping the 10 million Uggla will make this year is the first priority. Getting an All Star 2b and a lefty with upside is a bonus.
#117 – kc, sorry man but you have a terminal case of NAWS. You trade Teheran straight up or as part of a package for Braun or Longoria in a heartbeat.
#111 – Your friend’s name isn’t Robert is it?
November 17th, 2010 at 7:55 amI disagree that this deal was a steal when it comes to value added. It was still great from the perspective of the Braves, who added a player whose value on the field is a TON more than those players delt away, but it’s defensible from the Marlins perspective, too. If you don’t have money to spend, Infante + Dunn can provide you real on-field value for very, very cheap. For the Braves, there’s no way you’re finding someone as good as Uggla for a similar price. And FWIW, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them sign him to a 1-year deal and either look to extend next off-season or just offer arbitration again. I don’t think he’s going to get offers much better than the one he turned down from Florida given his age and defensive problems. Either way the Braves get draft picks, which certainly seems better to me than Mike Dunn. The other thing is, I’m not convinced Uggla’s going to age well, so not committing big money to him is probably a good idea, at least in my opinion.
So yeah, clear win for the Braves, possibly defensible if you’re the Marlins.
November 17th, 2010 at 8:18 amThe Marlins didn’t have much leverage once Uggla turned down their offer. Everyone knew they had to trade him, so no one was going to offer much. They did the best they could.
But, this means the Braves pitchers have to go for strikeouts on every hitter.:) Because, as the team is currently constructed, there are going to be lots of ground balls getting through and fly balls hitting the ground. What will Hudson’s BABIP be this year?
November 17th, 2010 at 8:58 amAnybody read JC’s piece analyzing the deal? If I read it right we got what we needed, but the Marlins didn’t get screwed and may have “made more” on the deal than we did in terms of dollar value. Now in this case I think it’s a matter of a win-win deal where we got the bat we needed on a one year rental, they got a well priced fully functional one-year rental in return and the salary relief they needed. They weren’t a team one or two pieces away from winning it all, and aren’t in a financial situation (dictated by minimal fan base and ownership philosophy) to spend the $10M on Uggla for another year to make them a “still not in the post season but maybe ahead of the Mets in the division” team.
IF Uggla was likely to sign a reasonable extension with us (which seems unlikely as the figure I was seeing was him wanting 5/70) I’d consider it a fantastic deal, as it is I consider it a really good deal because we got what we needed for next year without giving up much in the long term (not like trading the farm for a year and a half of Tex).
November 17th, 2010 at 9:02 am@129, this would be much more true if the Marlins hadn’t just handed out one of the worst overpays of all time. Infante/Buck eats up the 2010 Uggla salary, Infante is an FA next year, and Buck unfortunately stays at 6M(!!!) per for the next three.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:13 amIt’s really important that the Braves land good defensive replacements for both utility OF and IF. Punto and Gwynn would be really nice additions at this point. Jerry Hairston Jr. could meanwhile fill both roles, but I like each of the other two guys at their respective positions.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:26 ammy useless prediction:
the braves are going to get a cf from the yankees, somehow. and wouldnt gardner be well-suited to a bigger park considering he runs well and hits to the gap? his career splits are favorable to road games. a few trade scenarios the yanks might be interested in:
derek lowe and reliever for nick swisher
November 17th, 2010 at 9:29 amderek lowe for curtis granderson
jair jurrjens for curtis granderson
jair jurrjens + reliever for brett gardner
76–
I’m aware of his nice numbers last year, and I hope he continues that trend. That said, I’d take his career numbers as a better indication of his true talent level than last year’s stats on their own. I ultimately think that the real key for the Braves success against lefties this season will be Chipper’s health, as well as his ability to maintain success hitting right-handed. In 2009 he was better from that side; in 2010 he was much worse.
134–The most realistic trade scenario is the last one, the Jair Jurrjens + reliever for Brett Gardner. That said, the Yankees won’t be trading any of their outfielders unless they sign Crawford or Werth. And I can’t imagine them signing either of those unless they miss out on Cliff Lee. So watch the Lee situation closely.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:31 amLet’s be real folks. Chipper is not going to play very much. If at all. He’ll be out in spring. Great move.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:35 amMLBTR is reporting that the Marlins could possibly land Upton with just Nolasco and Logan Morrison. If that is all he costs, we should most definitely be in on the bidding. We could destroy that offer and not really lose that much. This just can’t be true.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:52 amIf you wouldn’t trade Terehan for Braun then I don’t know what to say. I mean I get it if your club is pretty good or even just decent in offense, but when you’re talking a team that’s already stacked in pitching and hurting for offense (less so with Uggla) then you have to do it if such a deal becomes available, imo. You may give up the next Adam Wainwright, but you got RYAN BRAUN for like 15 years or however many seasons his ridiculously team friendly contract is for. It’s not like giving up Adam Wainwright for one season of Teixera or something.
And Upton is just Braun with better defense, coming off a bad season with a shoulder injury. Although I’m not sure Braves fans should be so quick to players for “bad seasons” from outfielders, given that the Braves outfield has pretty much set the standard for bad for the last few seasons, and then somehow managed to fall below that standard.
Speaking of Upton, J., MLBTR has it that the Marlins are now interested and “an exec speculated” that Ricky Nolasco and Logan Morrison should be enough for a deal. We could top that, right?
JJ >= Nolasco
Not sure we have a position prospect outside of Freeman they’d want, but someone like Delgado/Beachy/Minor should be roughly equivalent from a pitching sense, right?
If I’m Wren, I’d probably injure myself in my haste to make a JJ + Minor for Justin Upton deal. But I think said exec is probably way off.
Still, stranger things have happened recently.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:58 amJust a point of order: MLBTR reports very little. They link to reports and summarize them. That Upton thing, for example, was reported by Joel Sherman, as they note.
It’s always bothered me when folks say something like, “Oh, you can’t trust MLBTR, they’re wrong all the time.” Actually, no, they’re almost never wrong — because they’re just linking to other people’s stories, providing a one-stop shop for rumors.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:59 amDO IT WREN! I’m going to be a bit miffed if the Marlins offer is all it takes to get Upton, and we weren’t in on it.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:10 am@139
November 17th, 2010 at 10:11 ami understand the site stu, and i love the work they do. i just didnt find it necessary to add all the hoopla.
Saying “Joel Sherman” instead of “MLBTR” entails hoopla?
November 17th, 2010 at 10:16 amsure does. next question.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:20 amWell, you could answer the one I posed at 70, above…
November 17th, 2010 at 10:22 amLooks like my favorite right-handed relief option is about to be off the market.
Jon Rauch, please.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:27 amI think we should go after a true center fielder, not sure Upton is the guy we want. If Chipper is back Prado is in left and McLouth in center.
To me the the places we need to upgrade are
Back up SS
November 17th, 2010 at 10:30 amCenter field
Bench
Right handed RP
Upton is worth moving Heyward to center for, IMO.
That said, I’d just as soon pay a lot less and get his brother, a true center fielder…
November 17th, 2010 at 10:31 amWe need to listen to Rob Cope about Upton.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:31 amI’d say we need to listen to B-Ref and FanGraphs more.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:32 am@147,
I would be willing to try Heyward in center, but I think we need a true center fielder. While I am sure Prado can handle left, I would like a guy out there who can help him out some.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:36 amI don’t see any reason to think Chipper won’t play. Whether he plays well is another story but I assume that with rehab he might actually be healthier than he has been in several years.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:47 amIf Towers deals Justin Upton for Logan Morrison and Ricky Nolasco he should be fired immediately.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:48 amwhy can’t andruw play center anymore? did you see who we ran out there last year? andruw didnt play center last year because of rios and he didnt play the years before because he was obese. he’s slimmer and more agile and i’m sure that he can handle center in a part-time role. in 2008, an obese andruw was slightly above average in cf. i have faith.
i dont think we have diaz.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:56 amAs I said, technically, we do. As I’ve also said, I don’t believe we’ll have him at the start of the season.
Well, you are in the extreme minority on Andruw’s ability to play center. Just because we had crappy defensive outfielders last year doesn’t mean we should sign another one for this year.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:01 amNo way Andruw is a center fielder anymore. Willie Mays was good once too, but I wouldn’t put him out there today.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:06 am155—Along those lines, I’d rather pay Willie $2 million to consult than pay Andruw $2 million to play. He’s really a bad fit, at this point.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:08 ami’m used to be in the minority when it comes to blind observation. and i’m also willing to bet my life savings that andruw jones can play a better CF than nate mclouth, which, if no one is acquired, will be the everyday player out there.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:11 amI would definitely take that bet. As for McLouth playing everyday, I don’t think anybody wants that; there are just several better options than a washed-up Andruw Jones.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:12 amI guess I’m in the minority, but a 23-year-old 1B who OBP’d .390 last year and a 28-year-old starting pitcher with multi-year peripherals of a solid #2 starter sounds like a pretty valuable package to trade for a talented but mercurial young OF.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:15 am159—Yeah, I actually think that’s a good package, too, and wouldn’t be easy for the Braves to beat, at all.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:16 amJurrjens and Freeman would be our equivalent package, and it would be only marginally better. And there’s no way we would do it.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:19 am2 things – Uggla makes me think of a mega-AAG.
And if we’re counting on Freeman to bat 6th, we’re going to have problems. Maybe in a couple of years, but not in 2011.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:20 amcheck out the similar players to BJ Upton
Mark Teahen (956)
November 17th, 2010 at 11:21 amRob Mackowiak (950)
Robert Fick (946)
Glenn Braggs (939)
Chris Singleton (936)
Junior Felix (935)
Mike Blowers (935)
Nate McLouth (934)
Oddibe McDowell (933)
Wes Helms (932
I think andruw is a platoon corner of at this point. It’s not his weight, its his knees.
And his declining skills.
Perhaps he can carry the small side of a cf platoon with nate, but I’d think that’s a February fall back, not a.November
November 17th, 2010 at 11:22 amI think andruw is a platoon corner of at this point. It’s not his weight, its his knees.
And his declining skills.
Perhaps he can carry the small side of a cf platoon with nate, but I’d think that’s a February fall back, not a November solution.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:22 am163—That is sobering, but if you trade for Upton, you’re banking on the untapped potential and luck-reversal. Which is a worthwhile gamble, IMO, if the rumors about his relatively low price tag are true.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:23 amnolasco is only under team control for the next 2 years and will probably cost around 5 million next year. looking at his numbers, he’d be hard-pressed to even make the braves rotation. his last 2 years have not been #2 starter material.
morrison is obviously the gem here, but what are his proections: sean casey? for an elite outfielder, that is not a good package.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:30 am167—One’s view of Nolasco depends on how highly he values peripherals and “luck.” Judging by K, walks, and homers, he’s absolutely been a #2 for the past 3 years. Arguable, for sure, but I’d love to have him. I think he’s better than Jurrjens, although Jair’s worth a little bit more because of that extra year of control.
And Morrison has a whole lot more power than Sean Casey. That is a horrible comp.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:34 amJustin Upton is very unlikely to be moved for the same reason as Braun. He’s got a very team-friendly deal that keeps him under control through 2015. Even if you’ve got a few years of rebuilding ahead of you, he’ll still be in place for a couple years once the new talent arrives. If the Braves wanted him, the price would start with Tommy Hanson and go from there. Hanson + Teheran might get it done, but if you’re the Braves, I’m not sure you can do that.
Also, FWIW, for a time it was an open question as to who was better between Morrison and Heyward. So yeah, it’s not like the Marlins are dealing away chump change here. Still, I don’t expect them to give away multiple players that have elite potential for a single good player that has elite potential.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:38 am@163- It’s a much better group of players if you look at his comps “through age 25″, which I think is the more relevant comparisson.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:39 amSim scores for 25 yos don’t tell you much – and at least use the most similar by age group. A ton of Uptons pa’s are really ojt more than an indicator of his talent level.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:48 amThe only thing stopping the Braves from topping the Marlins’ supposed offer is if the Diamondbacks are dead set on getting a position prospect back in return, because I’m not sure if the Braves would trade Freeman, the closest comparable to Morrison.
If they would except just pitching though, then the Braves could easily top it. Jurrjens is at worst equal to Nolasco in terms of trade value. Similar numbers and an extra year of control. Then they have guys like Delgado, Vizcaino, Minor, Beachy, Venters, and Kimbrel to fill out a package.
Untapped potential for untapped potential.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:51 amactually, looking strictly at numbers, no it’s not.
casey’s minor league numbers through age of 20-22:
.541 slg HR/33 at-bats
morrison through same age:
.465 slg HR/45 at-bats
casey is 6’4 215
logan is 6’3 235
both bat and throw left-handed
both are first baseman
how is this a terrible comp?
November 17th, 2010 at 11:56 amBecause none of the scouts or prospect gurus agree with you? Because Casey’s minor-league track record made his major-league lack of power extremely unlikely?
November 17th, 2010 at 11:59 amAlso, after actually looking at their stats, it’s worth noting that Casey was at least a year older than Morrison at pretty much every level.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:06 pmI’d rather have JJ than Nolasco, who’s been hugely up and down during his young career. Nolasco strikes more people out, but Jair has been markedly more effective. And it’s not like Ricky plays in a hitter’s park. He’s talented, and I’d love to buy low on him, but I hold JJ in higher regard.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:11 pm#166 – Id still trade for Upton and be willing to bench Nate. I just have a feeling that the Chipper isnt going to return fully healthy and we will still be needing a big bat for LF though. Anyone else feel the same?
November 17th, 2010 at 12:19 pmstu, do some more research. scouts are changing their stance on logan over the last 2 years. his power was rated at 81 in high A ball, but many scouts think he’s more of a james loney type…aka sean casey.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:26 pmPlease point me to these scouts. It sounds like you’re describing Freddie Freeman. Or that your “research” ignores the wrist injury which everyone acknowledges decreased his power in ’09.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:32 pmno, i’ve actually linked it twice, but for whatever reason it wont post. google it yourself. why dont you link me to your scouts?
one is bleacherreport and one is rotoprofessor
November 17th, 2010 at 12:38 pmWell, this is pointless. I have spent several posts defending the obvious point that Morrison projects to have more power than Sean freaking Casey. I have no idea why I waste so much time going back and forth with someone who so clearly doesn’t get it. I promise to try harder to ignore you!
November 17th, 2010 at 12:42 pmhttp://bit.ly/9PEYK6
November 17th, 2010 at 12:42 pmstu, it’s an argument. get over yourself. we have different opinions. some scouts agree with me and some agree with you. you’re the one that called me out, remember? you’re pretty good at that. so sorry that i dont bow down to the mighty stu and submit to his opinions.
oh, here’s one link…
November 17th, 2010 at 12:47 pmhttp://rotoprofessor.com/baseball/?p=7353
nevermind
November 17th, 2010 at 12:47 pmPhysician, heal thyself.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:51 pm#177 You would be willing to eat Nate’s 6.5 million dollars but the Braves won’t.
I was dead wrong on Uggla but I don’t see the Braves trading for another established outfielder.
Call me too optimistic but I think Chipper comes back and is effective in 2011.
November 17th, 2010 at 12:53 pmI like the trade for the Braves, but I’m sad to see Omar go, especially to the Marlins. Best wishes to him.
We’re better off than we were a day ago, but I hope Wren can find the power-hitting OFer we still need. A big part of Uggla’s value is corner OF HR power from an INF. If Prado moves to (or, if you believe Wren’s spin, stays in) LF because Chipper is at 3B, then some of that value is diminished because Prado doesn’t give you the power you’d like from LF.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:09 pmStu/Ryan:
Each time I read what one of you writes, I say to myself, “Well, he has a point.” This is where I come for hot stove Braves information. Please, for the sake of someone like me, keep posting the back and forths without getting too pissed at each other.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:13 pmI appreciate the sentiment — for my money, there is nothing better than a back-and-forth between spike and Sam, followed closely by a back-and-forth between Alex R. and anyone — but I like arguing too much, and I need to just … hold back. Everyone doesn’t need to know my opinion about every single baseball-related matter.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:20 pmSpike vs. Sam is always a good show, too bad we haven’t seen one of those in a while.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:25 pmSean Casey had little power at the ML level, even playing in Cincinnati. Prognosticators and the like are projecting Morrison for 30-40 HRs in his prime. It comes from more than numbers/body size. Morrison’s swing is conducive to hitting for power, or at least that’s what folks think. Casey had more of a line-drive stroke, and he was never able to get his muscles into the ball like, say, Adam Dunn does. It’s a bad comp unless you think Morrison is going to be a bust, because that’s what a Sean Casey-like career would be for a player of his reputation. If your opinion is that he’s going to bust, that’s fine, but argue that point instead of comparing him to Sean Casey for no good reason.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:26 pmJohnny @ 186 – well, if you’re Pollyanna about Chipper, I’m right there with you.
I’ve watched Larry Wayne Jones for a long time and unless he’s just physically unable to return I expect him to return and have one of his better years.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:29 pmI don’t think Sam enjoys it as much as you fellows. He’s not been back since the last one.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:30 pm@186, you may well be right about not pursuing another OF, but Nate costs 6.5M in the field or on the bench. I wouldn’t let that deter me from making the best move for my club.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:33 pm@191
i do think that was the opinion of the masses when logan was in high A, but his power really hasnt developed any since then. disagreeing is fine and i’m cool with your opinion mraver. on the other hand, thinking every person should share the same views as yours is obnoxiou, and every time stu argues with me, he does the same shit. he doesnt take it as an argument. he takes it as me not having his opinion, therefore i’m wrong.
also, i’ve yet to see these “scouts”.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:47 pm#194 – exactly. Just becuase he makes that amount doesnt mean you have to settle for his -1.9WAR .620OPS and terrible defense. Braves are hoping for a bounceback and so are we. I think he’s very capable, but I dont like the idea of banking on it.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:49 pmis it time for the 5,7,5′s to return?
November 17th, 2010 at 1:51 pm195—No, I take it as an argument, and I consistently refute your out-of-nowhere ideas, but the problem is that I keep going, well beyond the point where I should realize the futility and stop. Nice try, man.
November 17th, 2010 at 1:52 pmFWIW, Keith Law calls Uggla an “average” second baseman, which is better than what I have been hearing here. But, one day, it would be nice to have an infield that can actually stop balls. Or an outfield that can catch them.
I’m not sure Willie Mays wouldn’t be a better CF today at 79 than Melky Cabrera.
Looking up their stats, I noticed that Mays was left off of 23 ballots and Hank Aaron off of 9. Were those people insane?
November 17th, 2010 at 2:01 pmwell, considering we dont hang out outside of this blog, of course my ideas are going to be “out of nowhere”.
where are your scouts, stu? you told me all the scouts disagree with me. i found some that did agree with me. you said that all the gurus disagreed. where are these gurus and what have you done to them to keep them so quiet?
November 17th, 2010 at 2:02 pmBallots for the HOF.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:04 pmYou found a fantasy baseball blogger, man. That you think that’s a scout is hilarious, but does nothing to disprove my point. Like I said, I’m not wasting anymore time trying to convince you that the sky is blue. Like you say, Google is a resource.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:06 pmwhere’s your scout, stu? where is this guru? hilarity, indeed. backing your point up with scouts you can’t find and numbers that dont add up.
quote from baseball america:
November 17th, 2010 at 2:11 pm“But he’s as polished a hitter as there is in the minors, with gap power and excellent plate discipline (36-27 BB-K ratio).”
Well, at least we’re past annoyingly futile and into downright hilarious.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:14 pmWow, I’m honestly shocked that Bobby didn’t win Manager of the Year. I figured with him retiring and all the praise he’s gotten this year he would be a shoo-in.
And he didn’t even get second, with Dusty Baker losing by just one point.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:17 pmwell, at least we’re in to starting an argument, then tucking tail and running when you can’t find anything to back up your claim that’s not 2 years old.
but keep typing cute one-liners. it’s always worked for you, hasnt it, stu?
pissing contest: me+1…
November 17th, 2010 at 2:17 pmDude, you can’t even capitalize the first letter of a sentence. Or use Google properly, apparently. I meant it when I said that it wasn’t worth my time posting easy-to-find links (from the usual suspects, even!) for you. That you can’t find it — that I won’t hold your hand and show it to you — doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Officially the last post I will ever direct at you and your, as Robert once succinctly put it, three-steps-behind “analysis.”
Sorry, everyone else. Seriously, I should know better.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:22 pmso, that’s that. i’m stoked i dont have to deal with your narcissism. i’ll remind you of this in 10 years when logan morrison’s career looks like sean casey’s.
good reference with robert. you’ve officially stooped to a new low.
where’s your guru?
stu, but you dont know better. you never have. dont act innocent now!
November 17th, 2010 at 2:26 pmHere’s a thought:
Would you guys deal Prado for BJ Upton? I think it’s worth considering.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:31 pmbtw, i’m not apologizing to anyone for standing by my point on a blog.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:32 pm@290 Straight up? Only if we signed Uggla long term.
I changed my mind, I don’t think I’d do it. Maybe for Rasmus, though.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:33 pm@209,
No, because Prado is Chipper’s caddy now.
I think this means we are going to resign Henski and if we do upgrade anyhwere it iwll be a center fielder. Im not sure Upton can play there.
I would also venture saying we probably only add a back up SS, another OF/bench player and a RH reliever
November 17th, 2010 at 2:36 pmPrado’s value is not only in his bat but in his versatility in the field. Now we’ve traded Infante, he’s even more valuable.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:44 pmMy two cents: I don’t see any reason to assume Heyward will develop 30 home run power, and Morrison won’t. I realize Heyward is younger, but we’re talking a couple years.
At which level did Heyward hit all the bombs we’re assuming he will?
My point is, its projection. Just because there’s A Sean Casey, or a Corey Koskie who were similar in size, doesn’t, eliminate all the Paul Konerko’s and Justin Morneau’s of the world.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:45 pmPrado for Upton? WAR really likes Upton, and Prado’s value takes a hit as a LF, but Upton is more expensive, and far less of a known quality. To me, it would be a huge risk – you still have a problem in LF, and the CF you just traded for has been floundering for 3 years with the bat. Martin is a real 300/350/450 guy. Upton is definitely worth a lot, but I don’t think I can give my starting LF and Chipper insurance up. Besides, I love him and his work ethic, and by all accounts BJ is a dick.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:48 pmI’ll just note that I find it suspicious that Stu has the time to post numerous times, but not enough time to post a link that’s supposedly easy to find.
I did look myself, and the most recent non-subscription site I could find compared him to Nick Johnson, for what its worth.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:54 pmI love me some Uptons, but personally, I’m not moving Prado except for a pre-arb star, a la Rasmus.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:56 pmMy sense about Heyward’s HR projectability is that he has the physique (his chest hasn’t caught up to his shoulders yet) of someone who is going to be adding a lot of strength, but who can already hit 450 foot bombs as is.
This appears to be less true for Morrison, but there’s no way to be absolutely sure. I think he’s the next Nick Johnson, hopefully healthier.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:58 pm#209 – no. After our 1 year of Uggla, Martin will go back to 2b.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:05 pmNow that Infante’s gone (and I’m certainly not bitchin’ about that), we do need the versatility that Prado offers. Also, FWIW, I dig Prado.
Report from Met World:
It’s like a beauty pageant. The finalists for Mets manager are Bob Melvin, Wally Backman, Terry Collins & Chip Hale.
Also, anybody got BBQ recommendations for Austin, Texas?
November 17th, 2010 at 3:13 pmI think there’s a fair chance that Uggla will be more than a one-year rental. Even if they can’t work out an extension, the Braves will at least offer him arbitration next off-season, and there’s a fair chance he’ll accept.
Regardless, I think Prado ends up at 3B if Chipper retires after next year.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:15 pmi will be off my soapbox after this…
my real point with stu was this: he called my projection of logan morrison becoming sean casey “a horrible comparison”. i stood my ground and tried to validate my point. am i right? it’s a projection. no one’s right. he then said that none of the gurus and scouts agree with me. i obviously didnt find a scout to agree with me, but i did find 2 credible baseball sites to come to the same conclusion. because i didnt retract my statements and i have a difference of opinion, he belittles my thought and says he’ll “ignore my posts” and then goes on to play the victim.
at that point in time, the gloves came off.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:29 pmI don’t really want to get into this. But here goes.
First off, if Logan Morrison hit like Nick Johnson, that would be a terrific outcome. Nick Johnson hits like a mother, he just doesn’t stay healthy.
Okay, so: Logan Morrison is a really really good first base prospect who got moved off his natural position and still had a terrific rookie year. Every time there’s a really good first base prospect, you can point to worst-case scenarios, the guys who were supposed to hit for power and just kinda never did — Travis Lee, Casey Kotchman, James Loney, Lyle Overbay, Sean Casey, etc. But there really is no reason to broadly assume that will happen with Morrison, who ripped up the minors and hit really really well in the majors. (He hit .283/.390/.447 in 287 PA last year, and no matter how optimistic I am about Freddie Freeman, the chances of him hitting that well in 2011 are slim.)
So, okay, here are some links. No, he didn’t slug .500 right off the bat, like Mike Stanton. Kevin Goldstein notes that in 2010 he “show[ed] great on-base skills while not answering fair questions about his power ceiling”; by contrast, John Sickels wrote, “Hit .307/.427/.487 in Triple-A, .283/.390/.447 in the majors. More power will come.” Before the season, Keith Law wrote, “Morrison is extremely strong with plus raw power when his wrist is healthy; he has great hip rotation and can drive a ball even if he doesn’t square it up perfectly.”
To sum up: he is a really good prospect who had a really good season. While it’s unclear when he’ll reach his ceiling, right now he has shown no reason that he won’t reach it. The only thing that could prevent him from doing so would be either injury — like Nick Johnson — or something otherwise unexpected, like Travis Lee. Those caveats apply to every prospect. As far as his own career is concerned, Morrison has done nothing but scald the ball.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:30 pmNick Johnson could get hurt picking up a small pile of balsa wood.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:42 pm216—Hey, I never said I didn’t have the time.
223—Well, how about that?
November 17th, 2010 at 3:45 pmNick Johnson is apparently MADE of balsa wood.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:46 pmRyan, if you want to compare Morrison to Casey, you’ll have to point me to a link that supports that comparison, and explains why it’s more likely that Morrison will turn into Casey than Nick Johnson or whoever else. No credible report that I’ve read from any mainstream analyst or scout has suggested that it is likely that Morrison will turn into Sean Casey. If I’ve missed one, please show me.
The Bleacher-report article and the Rotoprofessor article comparing Morrison to Loney that you mentioned are the same article, not two separate ones. It’s written by a guy named Eric Stashin, who founded rotoprofessor.com, a site I’ve never heard of. He’s mostly concerned about Morrison’s home runs for fantasy purposes; as far as I know, he has no scouting or prospecting background.
So you’re relying on one article that was posted on two different websites that offers the opinion of just some guy on the internet. I’m linking to a bunch of different respected analysts who state the mainstream opinion of Morrison: he’s really good. If you disagree, you’re going to need to offer more evidence.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:46 pmDavid O’Brien
November 17th, 2010
1:40 pm
Just talked to Wren about CF Plan B. He said they feel good about McLouth after progress he made during minor-league stint last season and after he returned to majors.
He said Jordan Schafer and Matt Young are both candidates for backup CF, or Braves could add a bench guy with CF ability. Young has a plus in his versatility, can play lot of positions.
Schafer is set to begin hitting soon with new hitting coach Larry Parrish. Schafer’s finally not having the tingling-nerve problems in his wrist that had lingered for much of past year.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:53 pmThis repeated news about the roster basically being done is kinda killing my Uggla-buzz.
November 17th, 2010 at 3:59 pmIf it makes you any happier, I’m getting the “OMG-The-Division-Is-Getting-Better-And-We’re-Not-Doing-Anything!” hysteria from my office Mets fans.
When it comes to getting players, patience is not a virtue around here.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:02 pmOf course, that makes me happier, ububba!
November 17th, 2010 at 4:04 pmAt this point–and I say this as someone who sincerely enjoys the misery of Mets fans–such Met-land hysteria isn’t enough to cheer me after learning, again, that Wren is satisfied with “just good enough.”
He better sign two quality defensive backups, but with an inability to recognize the fact that McLouth, even when going well, needs both a platoon partner and a late-inning replacement, I’m not optimistic.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:07 pmYeah, but when MLB expands the regular season to 300 games and we go to a 9-man rotation of Hudson-Hanson-Jurrjens-Minor-Lowe-Teheran-Medlen-Delgado-Beachy in 2012, you’ll eat those words.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:10 pmBBQ in Austin? Gonna be tough, ububba.
I can’t offer a local’s perspective, but I did eat at a place called Rudy’s last year that was pretty good.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:11 pmBoston should trade us Mike Cameron and pay for his full salary
November 17th, 2010 at 4:13 pmSchafer? Blah… Spare me.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:24 pmI’m in the minority that hasn’t given up on Schafer, but … I’ve given up even less on BJ Upton.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:26 pmWe don’t know if Wren’s really done. He could be posturing. And he could be genuinely constrained by ownership. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it right now. I’m pretty happy with Uggla.
(And FWIW, it’ll make my Thanksgiving in Pennsylvania coal country with my Phillies-fan cousins a whole lot more tolerable. Come to think of it, thank you, SF Giants.)
Big D,
November 17th, 2010 at 4:28 pmThanks, I’ve found that it’s always better to ask a human being about restaurants than to rely on Google.
@220 – For BBQ in Austin you have to go to Lambert’s. It is without a doubt the best inside the city. If you can make it outside the city, go to the Salt Lick – it’s somewhat famous but the food lives up to the reputation and you can’t beat the experience.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:31 pmalex, what do your articles tell us? that he has power. sean casey had power as well. your links dont provide anything that tells me that sean casey is a horrible comparison for logan morrison. i looked at their stats, read up a bit, and made a comparison. sean casey had a fairly good career and was also ranked #20 on the prospects list at one point, was about the same size as logan, has a good eye, with good power.
he also had 3 years of 20 or more home runs.
i dont have to point you to a place that shows this comparison. i made it. i watch and study baseball just like everyone else here does. i think they look similar and i found a site that supports my idea that logan will not be a 30+ hr hitter, rather a gap hitter.
what is your point? it’s a frickin’ projection. let’s discuss this in 10 years when the stats are in.
i have my stance. i’m sticking to it. logan morrison doesnt look to me like a major power hitter, but a gap hitter with a good eye. he hasnt provided me any evidence to think that he’ll be a major power hitter.
if i’m wrong, fine…i’ve been wrong before. i was also told by you and stu last year, before season, that there’s no way heyward would come close to a .400 obp. you guys backed it up with all types of projections, while i just watched him. i’m not saying i have this amazing eye (not like coach’s), and i’ll probably be wrong more often than not, but nothing you’ve shown me tells me that sean casey is a “horrible” comp to logan morrison.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:33 pmAlthough I would like to see another big move made, I think Wren has some pretty strong justification for building a “good enough” team and hoping a few things work out. This seems to be the formula that both the Giants and the Rangers used and it got them to the WS. I’m not saying I agree with this, but I think this is a logical line of reasoning – unfortunately.
I will say though, that I’m ready to see some guys like Young, Canizares and even Timmons get a chance. Any of those guys are a lot less expensive than Melky Cabrera and I can tolerate them struggling a lot more than I could the Melk Dud. Heck, if they struggle for too long, give someone else a shot. I bet none of them will gain 30 lbs in the off-season!
November 17th, 2010 at 4:36 pmwhy do we care about Logan Morrison and Sean Casey? move on
November 17th, 2010 at 4:37 pmI’ve heard that Austin is a cool town. Although I like Texas style BBQ, IMHO they smoke the wrong animal. Give me some Carolina BBQ pork any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
While I would have rather had an outfielder, the Uggla acquisition has me stoked. Who knows though, maybe Dan comes to camp and volunteers to play LF so that a superior defender can play 2b. Lack of left field defense won’t kill this team. Uggla is the kind of guy that you put out in Left and hope no one hits too many out there.
I guess that I am the only one that has taken a full gulp of the we are a mid market team koolaid. The concern about McLouth is valid and I share it. But the Braves aren’t in a position to eat 6.5 million in salary to let him sit on the bench. To everyone’s point a superior defensive outfielder is now a must.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:43 pmfor those who are interested in Rajai Davis, forget that idea. He’s headin to Toronto
November 17th, 2010 at 4:44 pmi was also told by you and stu last year, before season, that there’s no way heyward would come close to a .400 obp.
I have no memory of telling you that he wouldn’t come close to a .400 OBP. I actually wrote on Yahoo that he would exceed most of the major projection systems. I may have told you that I doubted he would exceed a .400 OBP… and he didn’t. But unless my memory deceives me extremely, I never told you “there’s no way he would come close.”
Anyway, I’m not arguing the Morrison point any more. I gave you lots of evidence to back up my opinion, and you told me your contradictory opinion. So that’s where we are.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:44 pm“Although I would like to see another big move made, I think Wren has some pretty strong justification for building a “good enough” team and hoping a few things work out. This seems to be the formula that both the Giants and the Rangers used and it got them to the WS. I’m not saying I agree with this, but I think this is a logical line of reasoning – unfortunately.”
Look, I’m not advocating that the Braves go get Justin Upton–it would probably take Jurrjens, Prado, Teheran, and two more players (one major league ready, the other at least a B prospect), and that’s obviously too much. I’m advocating that Wren recognize the team’s limitations and address them. The Giants won last year not only because they had some guys get hot at the right time, but because they coupled great pitching with great defense. In the playoffs, they were able to play Cody Ross all over the outfield, bring in Nate Schierholtz for Burrell late, and move Uribe between SS and 3B. That really helps. The Braves need a couple guys like Uribe and Schierholtz, if not a Ross, who can spell McLouth and Uggla during the last couple innings.
I would LOVE to get a guy like Tony Gwynn Jr., and there are a bunch of good defensive infielders. The Braves’ pitching is very good, but most of the starters rely on the defense to make outs. Adding two good defenders is a must, and it’s affordable.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:54 pmOn the “just good enough” team concept.
I don’t full fault Wren, or even Liberty. My sense (unscientific, just a semi wild guess) is that in the ATL market there is an immense revenue penalty for not being competitive. So, the first job is to guard against that.
Then, the next thing is to “be better than that.”
My problem with Liberty is that if this is the last major deal, we once again seem to be down in payroll (even picking up a Hinske or a good right handed reliever and paying our arb guys and even if we DON’T get a Kawakami savings). Probably 7 to 10 million.
Take everything else we have done and ADD 10 million and put that in an outfield upgrade and Braves are eastern division favorites with 90% wildcard or better. That should be worth the investment.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:55 pmBut the Braves aren’t in a position to eat 6.5 million in salary to let him sit on the bench.
They may not have any more money to get another veteran player, if that’s what you mean. But the team was more than willing to not just bench, but send him to the minors last year. I like Nate, and hope he does well. But unless you thing the entire FO is insane, they are well aware of the significant possibility the he might not be any good this year. The 6.5M is gone either way. I guarantee you there is a contingency plan in place regarding replacing him should he suck out of the gate that involves “eating” whatever he makes.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:56 pmMaybe we can get McLouth to beat up his girlfriend’s father and tear a thumb ligament in the process.
November 17th, 2010 at 4:57 pm245–I was one of those who claimed Heyward would never reach that OBP. My name starts with A, your name starts with A…
November 17th, 2010 at 4:57 pmya know, yesterday i made a vow to myself to stop taking myself so seriously on these blogs and today i find myself falling into the same traps. it shouldnt be that important. as thick skinned as i am in real life, it doesnt transfer over to the blogging world.
sorry for any attacks…
November 17th, 2010 at 5:15 pmOff subject, but this is fantastic.
http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2010/11/17/tbj-exclusive-like-a-bosh/?ref=nf
November 17th, 2010 at 5:17 pmas thick skinned as i am in real life, it doesnt transfer over to the blogging world.
It’s in large part because that stuff is still sitting there for everyone to see hours and days later, as opposed to just vanishing into ephemera, like the verbal stuff does. Frankly, that, and the fact that people are far more willing to “bow up” as it were, behind the relative anonymity (or at least lack of proximity) on the ‘net is what makes this really a terrible media for back and forth conversation, despite the many advantages it offers. Public discourse generally has suffered as a result of this behavioral phenomena, I think, and has no small part in the inflamed and polarized times we live in, imho.
November 17th, 2010 at 5:42 pmSpike,
You’re right.
We argue better in person.
November 17th, 2010 at 5:45 pm@220
I lived in Austin for a couple years, ate my fair share of BBQ. Salt Lick is good and people like Stubbs, although it wasn’t my favorite. My three recommendations would be County Line (only ate at the one on the hill), Iron Works, or Artz. Artz is run down and not for everybody, but IMO they have good food.
November 17th, 2010 at 5:56 pm253—I completely disagree, you nitwit.
November 17th, 2010 at 5:57 pmI know it’s conventional wisdom, and I know that late inning situations are obviously higher leverage… But a flaw occurs to me in the ‘late-inning defensive replacement’ theory.
Part of being successful as a starting pitcher is getting the other team to put the ball in play; conserve pitches, etc.
ALL of being a successful relief pitcher is striking out the sons of bitches.
So, perhaps a good defensive OF is more valuable in innings 1-6 than he is in innings 7-9.
At least more than in inning 9.
November 17th, 2010 at 6:00 pm#251 ryan c
For what it’s worth, i appreciate you sticking up for your point of view.
November 17th, 2010 at 6:01 pmSpike,
All of that is true. I think, though, that internet discourse can certainly be beneficial to over-all understanding.
If you and I sat down and talked, or argued, then of course we’d convey our points effectively, if we each were seeking to understand each other. But debating in person has so much nuance to it, and force of personality can drown out perfectly informed opinion, through badgering, etc.
But the benefit of writing it out allows you the time to connect your logical dots, and it allows your respondent the time to dissect your words to find your meaning.
This of course requires we take the time to think.
Also, the ability of others to observe quietly, and chime in when they have something worth saying is also great.
That requires discretion, though. I guess if we all exercised discretion, all our conversations and debates would be more productive.
This just makes want to take a minute to offer an unprovoked thank you to Mac for providing and proctoring this space. I’ve been reading the Talking Chop comments lately, and….
Well, just, thanks Mac, and everyone. Even when you argue, and even when I’m wrong, and wrongheaded. This is the best place I’ve found to do it (and be it.)
November 17th, 2010 at 6:08 pmWell said, jjschiller. Mac, as always, is the host with the most.
November 17th, 2010 at 6:12 pmOf note:
1) I posted in this thread above.
2) I have been too busy to piss on spike of late.
3) Austin is fun but overrated if you’re no longer college aged.
4) Logan Morrison / Sean Casey is a horrible comparison.
November 17th, 2010 at 6:32 pmPicking up on what Adam M said, Tony Gwynn Jr. might be especially expendable now that the ‘dres have Maybin. We should go after him — but he’s not worth paying more than a B- prospect or so. He’s a truly reprehensible hitter. He’ll make Mark Kotsay look like Wally Berger.
And, as always, I’m deeply grateful to Mac for making this blog such an awesome place.
November 17th, 2010 at 6:37 pmThanks, guys.
I’ve a feeling that the Braves will regret trading Gregor Blanco, if they don’t already. He’s not great, but he’s still better than any other CF in the organization. At any rate, I’d like for them to try to find someone who’s a first-class glove in center; the team might have enough infield offense with Uggla to carry someone who hits like McLouth did last year if he can really pick it. Which McLouth can’t. There has to be someone available. L’il Tony isn’t a bad idea, and he’s not a total offensive zero because he’ll take a walk. Even if his name’s the only reason he’s had more of a major league career than Blanco.
November 17th, 2010 at 6:39 pmI second Mac motion.
November 17th, 2010 at 7:01 pm@232,
Adam,
It’s not that Wren is satisfied with “just good enough.” It’s that Liberty Media is. I’m sure Wren would love to go out and make another deal, but if it involves money, he is very limited.
The thing is, you are a mid-market team, you can’t put all your eggs in a bid to win it all one year, like the Yankees can. Let’s face it, Upton is a risk; his contract is team friendly if he lives up to his “potential” but if he doesn’t, it’s a drag. I know there is disagreement about how much to value prospects, but the only way a team like the Braves can hope to compete consistently is through the farm system. Unfortunately, the Braves have lots of pitching down there but, with Heyward and Freeman up, the cupboard is bare in position players.
I would like to see the Braves do something else, but the Giants success makes it less likely that they will. Liberty would be thrilled (if they care at all) to have a year like last year–more than competitive, stable payroll, steady attendence.
November 17th, 2010 at 7:07 pm@261, and after I just backed you up over at bbtf too – no good deed goes unpunished, indeed…
November 17th, 2010 at 7:10 pmWhatever problems we have on this blog, it’s a 100 times better than the crap you see on the AJC blogs and certainly in most political blogs. But I agree with Spike that the internet has generally been detrimental to civil discourse.
November 17th, 2010 at 7:11 pmif bowman was right and the braves had 15 million to spend, then approx. 7 million went to the uggla trade. if the braves can send kk back to japan, then it might be 10 million. 10 million for 4-5 roster spots is a pretty good chunk of change.
and, are we talking about the same tony gwynn, jr that has a career obp of .323 and ops of .637? man, that’s some desperation there. how can matt young not be an option if we’re going to stoop that low?
November 17th, 2010 at 7:14 pmHmmm …
Thought I’d find some positive vibes here today. May I remind everybody that Dan Friggin’ Uggla is bringing his right-handed-mother-fucking-churning-urn-of-burning-funk (and 100 RBIs) to the middle of our batting order?
And we still have all our starting pitching? And Venters?
Gentlemen, the drinking lamp is lit!
November 17th, 2010 at 7:24 pmNo Hank, who can be happy when we don’t yet know who Logan Morrison will be? Besides, you know, Logan Morrison.
Here’s a toughie that time will tell:
Better RF/1B combo
Heyward and Freeman, or Stanton and Morrison?
I think Heyward is probably the best of the four, but I think Stanton and Morrison could be 2 and 3 of the set.
November 17th, 2010 at 7:45 pmwren gives quite a shoutout to matt young in DOBs new blog.
November 17th, 2010 at 7:45 pmhttp://tinyurl.com/2wjjqk7
Update on my friend:
He is still very much against the trade. Really, truly thinks that it handicaps the team in the future. He seems to think Infante was the long term solution after next year. He calls Wren ‘short sighted’, not thinking about the long term result of this trade. He thinks Uggla will fall off this year and that Infante will be able to repeat his success from this year. Sometimes I can’t tell if he’s talking like this just to piss me off but I honestly think this is what he believes.
Again, he is still very bitter about the Yunel trade and will never give Wren credit no matter what he does.
And no he is not Robert…as far as I know.
November 17th, 2010 at 7:48 pm#248 – ‘They may not have any more money to get another veteran player, if that’s what you mean.’
Yeah, that’s what I mean. And I agree that there is a contingency plan in place. Its just not going to be one of the Upton brothers.
November 17th, 2010 at 8:12 pmMac,
I think it would be fun if there were a place we could post player projections for 2011. (and not forget in the fall to go back and have a look.)
November 17th, 2010 at 8:23 pmI could make that the next post, maybe tomorrow.
November 17th, 2010 at 8:37 pmOne thing noted over at Talking Chop was that Uggla’s counter-offer to the Marlins 4/48 was 5/71… Seventy-one sounds like a funny number, but it happens to be one million more than the Fish gave Hanley Ramirez.
There’s a good chance he doesn’t expect 5/71, but that it was just Uggla’s way of giving the Fish the finger.
Uggla at 5 is right out for me. Uggla at 4 is scary. Uggla at 3, I think I would do (Uggla probably wouldn’t.) Whether he’s at 2nd or 3rd, he’d be replacing Chipper. He ain’t Chipper, but no one else is either.
Also, I’ve got a friend who wants bet me $10 Prado suffers an elbow injury next year. Infielder moving to OF.. Kelly Johnson comes to mind. I hadn’t thought about it until he brought it up.
November 17th, 2010 at 8:41 pmOne thing I like about Uggla is that he was no prospect, none at all. He was an 11th-round pick out of Memphis State (as it was then) and his minor league stats, until he was 25 in the Southern League, were pedestrian. He was a Rule 5 pick, the relatively rare position player Rule 5er who makes it. I have to think a player who can make it despite never being a prospect is going to work hard at staying in the majors.
November 17th, 2010 at 8:50 pmLike that Prado guy.
November 17th, 2010 at 8:51 pmUggla at 5 is right out for me.
Four years shalt thou not give Uggla, nor either give him two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:07 pmsome terrifying scenarios are…
1. if chipper can’t start the year
2. or if he’s in and out of the lineup constantly.
if chipper goes down, without infante or a real cf, we’re going to be back in the boat of having a very poor outfield. this is the sole reason why i think the braves have to sign/acquire someone of use for CF. are there any infante’s out there that can play all positions well without sacrificing offense?
November 17th, 2010 at 9:33 pmWell-played aar.
Ryan, agree completely. A genuine CF is needed if your chipper insurance is your starting LF. Nate doesn’t kill you if he’s the bat added when chipper goes down. But if Nates your starting CF, and the bat replacing chipper is WORSE than Nate….. eeeesh.
November 17th, 2010 at 9:51 pmHeck, Prado was probably a better prospect than Uggla; people thought he could have a career in the majors for a few years as a backup, at least. I don’t think anyone outside the Marlins’ front office thought Uggla could make it.
Uggla’s most-similar hitters are Joe Gordon and Jeff Kent. I don’t think Gordon (a superior glove man) is a good match, but Kent… That really is encouraging. And Uggla’s numbers aren’t that similar to Kent’s — because they’re a lot better. Through Age 30, Kent’s slash line was .274/.330/.471. Uggla’s is .263/.349/.488. Kent won the MVP at 32…
November 17th, 2010 at 10:19 pmMike, I disagree 100% with your friend. There is nothing about the trade that hurts the team long term. You basically have either Omar or Uggla for one year and they get to keep Dunn longer if he learns to command his pitches. If not, they’ll cut him by the time his first or second arb seasons roll around. This trade IMO, helps the Braves in the short term with giving us the big RH bat and in the long term by either resigning the guy that averages a 3.8WAR or by giving us the draft picks. Maybe he should recognize that we turned the super utility guy into a 2 time allstar 30hr/100rbi guy + draft picks.
November 17th, 2010 at 10:50 pmHey, if you go to Uggla’s b-ref page, one of the articles under Player News is Braves Journal!
November 17th, 2010 at 10:50 pm282—Not in front of a computer, but Kent didn’t strike out that much, did he?
November 17th, 2010 at 10:54 pmObviously, Uggla would take the second half of Jeff Kent’s career and say thank you very kindly. Kent was rangier and more athletic than Uggla, though, so I’m not sure he’s the most apt comparison.
Three names spring to my mind — Harmon Killebrew, Vern Stephens, and Ron Cey.
Killebrew represents Uggla’s ceiling, retaining his power while adding patience and continuing to be a destructive offensive force for the next five years.
Stephens is the floor, a complete collapse after age 30, followed by an alcohol-feuled premature death. As Rob Neyer would say, gosh, I sure hope not.
Cey is the middle ground — no more All-Star teams, but good enough secondary skills that he can remain an effective player for a few years, with some hot streaks thrown in for good measure to counteract substandard defense. That to me is the most likely scenario.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:02 pmStu, he avg’d about 100k’s per in his full seasons
November 17th, 2010 at 11:03 pmMike, that’s actually an automatic thing with B-R’s player linker. I just didn’t have a chance to do the linker setup until just now.
Sansho, Kent was considered a very poor second baseman in his twenties, kept being moved to third and even first. His speed numbers (SBs and 3Bs) aren’t much better than Uggla’s.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:04 pmAh, gotcha. Still awesome though.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:06 pmSo sansho1, you think a Ron Cey career arc is more likely than an alcohol-fueled premature death?
Interesting..
November 17th, 2010 at 11:20 pmDo I remember correctly that my first Jeff Kent baseball cards listed him as a shortstop?
November 17th, 2010 at 11:22 pmBased on what I’m reading, is the assumption correct that Prado is moving to left? So…when (not if) Chipper gets hurt, will Prado play third? If that is the case, who is out there full time with Heyward and McLouth? And why do I feel like we are back in the position we were last year of having an outfield with no power options if Heyward loses his stroke for games at a time?
November 17th, 2010 at 11:34 pmKent played shortstop his first year in the minors, at low-A, but was quickly moved to third, then second. He played three games in the majors at short, because Mets.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:35 pmWho picked McLouth to be facing Halladay in this new video game commercial?
November 17th, 2010 at 11:42 pmDo I remember correctly that my first baseball cards of a current MLB Network host that I am watching right now had the phrase ‘Fuck Face’ on his bat knob ? I’m sorry but I can’t watch Billy Ripken for longer than a minute without thinking of that.
I have a box full of Mike Kelly Upper Deck Holograms if anybody would like them.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:45 pmI would guess that Mather would play third if Chipper is out for a few games; if Chipper went on the DL, Prado would move there and they’d make a callup. The Braves are trying to re-sign Hinske, who could play left or third, depending upon the situation.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:48 pmI really can’t picture Hinske playing third at all these days.
I’m insulted nobody wants my Mike Kelly Holograms. As an added bonus, I will throw in three Bruce Chen Blue Refractors.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:50 pm292-That’s kind of where I’m at as well. Basically, having a competitive lineup will come down to relying on Chipper’s health. Though, whoever the replacement is couldn’t be worse than Melky.
The issue is that you can’t rule out Chipper, and under those circumstances, any additional player added has to be able to play CF or you’re potentially taking Prado’s bat out of the lineup
November 17th, 2010 at 11:52 pmI don’t want to baldly assert that Kent’s offensive explosion in his 30s is entirely due to PEDs, but, well, I wouldn’t look for Uggla to do the same thing.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:53 pmIf Alex won’t baldly assert it, I will. There’s a pretty good reason why Kent always stuck up for Bonds, especially with the media.
November 17th, 2010 at 11:58 pmActually, Kent and Bonds hated each other’s guts.
November 18th, 2010 at 12:00 amAlso, Uggla never got much respect in the minors, but he was on some people’s radar as a possible utility guy, especially after a great year in 2003 — even though it happened in a hitter’s park.
John Sickels described it thusly:
November 18th, 2010 at 12:05 am-301 That’s right. I remember Bonds bitching about deserving Kent’s MVP. Though he did have an argument.
November 18th, 2010 at 12:05 amI know they hated each other at times, but I thought after Kent left he talked about Barry ‘being a great teammate’ or something to the effect.
November 18th, 2010 at 12:05 amDonny,
Lambert’s sounds like a winner. I’m saying 6 blocks away (as Lucinda once sang).
#261
Sam,
Austin overrated? Where you from?
A truly great art/music scene is never overrated (mainly because it’s pretty rare.) And, if you really care about it at all, it certainly transcends age.
November 18th, 2010 at 12:43 amYes, I am up at this ungodly hour (for work reasons) and I won’t be up at 8 CT when a new thread goes up.
November 18th, 2010 at 2:19 am@290
I just think it’s a discussion that needs to be had, jjschiller.
November 18th, 2010 at 7:04 am