12 Dec
Goodbye, KJ
Johnson a free agent after non-tendered by Braves | ajc.com
I remain convinced that somewhere else he will blossom, that he was just a bad fit with this team for some reason. This is something I didn’t say about, say, Jeff Francoeur. At any rate, good luck to him. It leaves the Braves with basically Omar Infante as a backup infielder, so I have to think they’ll be shopping rather than go into the season with Diory Hernandez on the bench.
does Conrad get the opportunity? seems to have a little pop and is a SH, not a bad person to have as a 3rd backup I guess
December 12th, 2009 at 4:36 pmI also like Conrad. And despite Prado’s excellent work last year, I’m a little nervous about him being our full time second baseman.
December 12th, 2009 at 4:51 pmKJ lost his confidence somewhere. Too bad. He can probably find it again in Kansas City.
FWIW, Yanks non-tender Chien-Ming Wang. He’s not expected to pitch again until mid-2010.
December 12th, 2009 at 4:52 pmKJ’s cold streaks were fuh-reeeeezing cold.
December 12th, 2009 at 4:54 pmWhile I don’t have 100% confidence in Prado, I have 0% confidence in KJ. I loved KJ, but he just ran out of time with the Braves.
I say KJ will sign with either the Rangers or the Astros.
December 12th, 2009 at 4:59 pmYeah… what everybody said. Sucks he’s gone, but Prado won the job, and this has been a while in coming.
By the way, in the gratuitous self-aggrandizement category, I wrote a post explaining wOBA for Yahoo Sports which Tom Tango and Dave Studeman commented on.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:08 pmFrancoeur bad in 2006, good in 2007 and awful in 2008 = a chance in 2009
Johnson good in 2007, good in 2008 and awful in 2009 = non-tender
Certainly shows that the Braves were the opposite of Mac in who they believed in. Though I suspect the belief in Francoeur was based more on ticket and jersey sells.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:13 pmGoodbye, KJ. Whoever signs him is getting a hell of a value at 2B.
I’m disappointed, though not surprised, to hear this news.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:38 pmYou know KJ’s situation reminds me a little of Mark DeRosa several years ago. Let’s hope he does well wherever he goes.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:39 pmAgree with you both, PW and td.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:04 pm@7 – Someone might want to factor in the concept of a suitable replacement. Where Frenchy had no business playing in our outfield, we had no other options (and we are still weak there). On the other hand, we have a more than suitable replacement for KJ. KJ simply wasn’t going to start here, so why would you pay a backup player 3M.
I too believe he is a good ballplayer and will catch on elsewhere. But I’ll tell you now, if we had 3 suitable outfielders to start the season last year, Frenchy would have been gone as well.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:07 pmNice work, AAR.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:26 pm@11 – agree with you that 3M is too much for a backup infielder whose only position is 2B. There are better ways, one would hope, that the team can spend $3 million. We’ll just have to wait to see if they do.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:28 pmOf KJ, Church, & Francouer I feel pretty confident that KJ is the one we’ll hate having let go the most.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:28 pmWhy didn’t we trade KJ at the trading deadline last year?
December 12th, 2009 at 7:21 pm#9 I was thinking the same thing. Thing is DeRosa didn’t even have half the resume KJ put up in his 2007 2008 years. KJ is going to be good for someone. My biggest worry is whether or not Martin Prado is going to continue to be good for us. Dang.
Has anyone taken a look at the list of non tenders to see if any interesting right handed hitters have hit free agency? I know they are going to be either old, coming off injury or old and coming off injury but good Lord something has to out there thats somewhat better than the Adrian Beltres, Xavier Nadys, yes Mark DeRosas or Mike Camerons out there.
December 12th, 2009 at 7:29 pmDan,
Let me fix that for you.
Francoeur bad in 2006, good in 2007 and awful in 2008 = a STARTING OUTFIELDER in 2009
Johnson good in 2007, good in 2008 and awful in 2009 = non-tender
Certainly shows that the Braves were the opposite of Mac in who they believed in. Though I suspect the belief in Francoeur was based more on ticket and jersey sells.
December 12th, 2009 at 7:37 pmNice explanation Alex. Hell, even I understood it.
December 12th, 2009 at 7:38 pmSo, who thinks Tebow voted for himself?
December 12th, 2009 at 8:09 pmhe didnt vote
http://www.stiffarmtrophy.com/votes2009.html
December 12th, 2009 at 8:15 pmI think it’s between Ingram and Gerhart.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:24 pm#20 – nevermind, he did vote…but it hasnt been revealed. So I’d say he voted for Himself, Suh, then Gerhart. He didnt want to help Ingram or Colt, Id guess
December 12th, 2009 at 8:31 pmAs an Alabama fan I haven’t been real big on Ingram winning the Heisman. After hearing all the pundits I’m convinced that he deserves to at least win it over Gerhart. At this point, I’ll be very surprised if he doesn’t win it.
The Texas/Nebraska game caused two problems for McCoy. First, he didn’t have a great game to say the least. Second, and probably more importantly, Suh became a real contender because of his dominating game. This probably took away more votes from McCoy than anything else.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:33 pmGerhart looks like he might puke here
December 12th, 2009 at 8:42 pmTotal Yards – Rushing + Receiving
Gerhart – 1885
Ingram – 1864
Yards per play (Rushing and Receiving)
Ingram – 6.68
Gerhart – 5.87
Edge definitely goes to Ingram
December 12th, 2009 at 8:45 pmgive Ingram the extra 71 carries that Gerhart received he wouldve been very close to 2000 yds rushing. Thats why I see it being very hard to give it to someone on a 5 loss team. UA couldve padded stats but they pulled him early in a few games.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:47 pmGerhart’s case is built on scores more than on yardage.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:47 pmWhat a weak year for the Heisman. Ingram will probably win and his numbers are going to be some of the weakest ever seen for the winner.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:47 pmTide wouldnt be plating for a National title without him, congrats Mark! Nothing but class in that speech
December 12th, 2009 at 9:01 pmWow! Ingram does seem like a class act as well as the others.
December 12th, 2009 at 9:03 pmJohnny Musso is avenged!
December 12th, 2009 at 9:44 pmObviously, I’m happy. Surprised Gerhart was second.
December 12th, 2009 at 9:47 pmif this is our idea of upgrading our offense, Ill be the 1st to say I wont be happy
http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/heyward-could-be-answer-239294.html
so I guess they wanted Gload and Heyward as our upgrades. Thank you Phillies
December 12th, 2009 at 10:04 pmHonestly, until they do sign someone, what else are they going to say? It doesn’t help your leverage with other players by ruling it out. And in all seriousness, if he’s ready to play and play well at the big league level (I am unconvinced) holding him back for a year presents its own problems..
December 12th, 2009 at 10:20 pmnot referring to Heyward…my problem was the thinking that signing Gload was some kind of an upgrade.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:25 pmI hesitate. Our track record with the last 2 outfielders straight from AA isn’t pretty.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:33 pm35 – Oh right. Gload is terrible.
36 – fair enough, but the last kid we brought up after advancing three levels in one year did okay.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:42 pm16,
Kelly Johnson is probably the best player in the class, but, a few others that the Braves should at least keep an eye on:
Garrett Atkins, Jonny Gomes, and Jack Cust.
All 3 low-avg RH-hitters w/ plus power (somewhat questionable WRT Atkins). Cust’s walk rate is real good, too. None of them bring anything to the table defensively.
All plan C’s at best.
Wang and Olsen are decent rotation buy-lows, though that’s not really a need. And relievers aren’t either, but there’s not much there to begin with.
And of course:
Kelly Johnson and Ryan Church.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:23 pmCust bats left.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:32 pmCust is LH
December 12th, 2009 at 11:32 pmI’d be more than willing to stick Cust in left field and keep a defensive caddy around, then spend the actual money at first base. But I doubt that the Braves would ever dream of it.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:36 pmMy bad on Cust, guys.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:42 pmdeleted
December 13th, 2009 at 12:34 amAdd Ryan Garko to the list… I guess…
December 13th, 2009 at 1:09 amAm I drunk, or would a Garko/Jacobs platoon be acceptable (cheap) solution for 1B: Garko lifetime vs LHP (.313/.392/.495 /.887) and Jacobs lifetime vs RHP (.243/.311/.447/.758.
Yeah nevermind, Jacobs sucks. I’m wondering why Troy Glaus isn’t really mentioned as an option.
It would be nice to sign Nady or Cameron and Glaus and you know, see what happens.
Please no Marlon Byrd.
December 13th, 2009 at 2:18 amMan, just looked at Glaus’s stats. In 2000 he hit .284 with 47 homers (led the league in homers) and 102 RBI, and didn’t get one single MVP vote. Was the AL that good that year or something?
December 13th, 2009 at 3:18 amMore like everyone was so jacked out of their minds on the juice that a season like that hardly caused a ripple.
December 13th, 2009 at 3:25 amthe Reds didn’t tender Gomes. could we pick him up and platoon him with Diaz?
December 13th, 2009 at 5:51 amLangerhans is available again…..
December 13th, 2009 at 7:41 amThinking back on the past few weeks, I have to laugh at Bobby Cox, who said, after Soriano accepted arbitration, that the team might keep him, he’d be great in the bullpen mix, and said about KJ, “a lot teams are knocking on the door about him.” Both times, everyone and his three-year-old sister knew that Bobby was trying to “deek” the market.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:22 amYeah, Bobby’s head fakes are as good as mine, these days.
Got a deal on Diaz. Incredibly cheap for that production.
If I were his agent, he’d be playing every day in left for the Reds making $6 million per year and hitting 25 homeruns.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:58 amNot sure you could pull that off, hank.
Diaz is under Braves control.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:10 amMaybe next year Matt can play for a manager and organization that values him.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:33 amDiaz is a career .722 OPS vs. RHP. I’m not sure how much it’s really necessary to give a guy who is only useful (and don’t get me wrong, hella useful) 1 or 2 times out of every trip through the rotation. Now, against the lefty-heavy Phillies, he’ll be great to have around. But he’s a platoon player, and on the short side of it at that.
As an aside, given how far to the left they lean and how many Ks they generate, does anyone else think the Phillies rotation is especially well-suited to getting out the Phillies lineup?
December 13th, 2009 at 11:46 amI would have voted for Ingram for Heisman, and I’m from Nebraska. Suh would have gotten my second place vote, and would have voted Spiller third.
Here’s my list for the WORST HEISMAN recepients all-time.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:49 am#7—Joe Bellino
#6—Danny Wuerrfel
#5—Gino Torretta
#4—Terry Baker
#3—John Huarte
#2—Andre Ware
#1—Jason White
Thats a pretty good list Randy, Wuerrfel,Torreta and Ware were dreadful in the NFL. I’m not much of a football guy (other than a Dolphins fanatic), can anyone name a Heisman winner that has gone on to a great NFL career?
December 13th, 2009 at 12:19 pmWell, there was O.J. Simpson.
December 13th, 2009 at 12:20 pmCharles Woodson is pretty good.
December 13th, 2009 at 1:06 pmHerschel Walker, Barry Sanders, Eddie George, Charles Woodson, and Carson Palmer have been solid NFL players. You could argue Ricky Williams even with all the problems he’s had
December 13th, 2009 at 1:11 pmTony Dorsett, Jim Plunkett, Marcus Allen, Mike Garrett.
Here’s a Warren St. John piece in today’s NY Times. For all you Bama people… and Michigan people, and Georgia people, and Notre Dame people…
December 13th, 2009 at 2:09 pmhttp://tinyurl.com/y9283ed
Was Johnson’s value that low at the trading deadline last year that they couldn’t have gotten something for him? He didn’t play much of a role at all at the end of the season, why not trade him?
December 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pmAnyone care to explain why the Falcons tried the Wildcat formation towards the end of the game there?
December 13th, 2009 at 3:55 pmThey thought they’d get a good gain and Weems could get out of bounds to stop the clock.
It would be interesting to see how good NO would be if the refs actually allowed defenders to defend their receivers.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:14 pm@56 – read the list. There’s a ton of all-time NFL’ers on there. http://www.heisman.com/index.php/heismanWinners
Plunkett, Staubach, Hornung, Bo Jackson, Spurrier, Marcus Allen, Earl Campbell and many others in addition to the ones previously named, really, nore often than not, the winner does pretty well in the NFL.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:20 pmIt’s mostly just overrated quarterbacks from the state of FL who fail miserably in the NFL. Tebow will go Wuerffel in a few years.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:22 pmI think that Tebow will have a fine career. As a tight end.
December 13th, 2009 at 5:18 pmI don’t know why really, but there are some ex-Braves I consider just mercenaries, no matter what they did for us, like Hampton, Byrd, or Teixeira.
And then there are some I still consider family, no matter what they did for us, like Millwood, Andruw, and – KJ. With all of his shortcomings and endless slumps, I will still miss him, I will follow his career no matter where he goes, and I certainly wish him well.
So long, KJ.
December 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pmOther Heisman Winning Tims:
Tim Brown – he did OK in the NFL for the Raiders.
December 13th, 2009 at 5:33 pmIt never fails for the Falcons. Every time they have a big year, something bad happens the next year (usually an injury).
Falcons gotta run the table to finish 9-7 and break the franchise-long streak. Sad to say, but that’s not happening.
Am I crazy or wouldn’t it be really cool to have 2 undefeated teams—and I mean these 2 undefeated teams— in the Super Bowl?
December 13th, 2009 at 5:48 pmWow, I guess there are a few that have gone on to decent NFL careers, and a few stars. Thanks for the education, fellas!
December 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pmThe award isn’t for the player projected to be the best NFL player. It’s for the best player in college football.
Some ESPN analyst/Heisman voter was on ESPN Radio the other day, and I think he did an excellent job of evaluating the Heisman finalists based on the criteria for the award. He was a Florida grad, and he actually had Tebow second on his ballot, which I disagree with. But when he was making his cases for who he voted one through three, he made some great points about things that people associate with the Heisman trophy with that are absolutely irrelevant to the award. The this-guy-will-do-better-than-that-guy-in-the-NFL argument is irrelevant; it’s a college football award awarded to the best college football player. He also disregarded the claim that part of Tebow’s case is the 21-game winning streak Florida had. He made the statement that only what was done in the 2009 season was relevant. That goes for Colt McCoy too. People say that his career work should culminate with him getting the Heisman his senior year. That’s irrelevant; only what he did this year is what should be the basis for the award.
With that said, Danny Wuerffel was simply not overrated in 1996. His body of work was incredible. His 1996 stats are some of the best by a quarterback in the entire decade. He dismantled Alabama’s defense in the SEC championship, and while I don’t remember if the Heisman was awarded before the NC like now, but he certainly solidified himself when he tore apart a Mickey Andrews in his heyday-led FSU defense. He also beat the then-#2 Tennessee in Knoxville, put up 50-plus on #12 and #16 LSU and Auburn respectively, and overall obliterated everyone but FSU in the regular season. His NFL career certainly sucked, but he was not overvalued when it came to awarding the most outstanding college football player in 1996.
Tebow should also get a pass until he actually has an NFL career, whether it be as a tight end or quarterback. Of course, if Tebow were a Buddhist, Hutcheson would like him.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:25 pmLaRoche is reportedly looking for a three year, $31 million deal. So much for re-signing him.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:31 pmI’m looking for one of those too. Bet neither one of us finds it before spring training.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:41 pmI doubt LaRoche gets that. I say we just sign Randall Simon.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:52 pmAnyone got any experience with Take Me Out to the Ballgame: A History of Baseball in America by Timothy B. Shutt?
I picked it up on CD for my drive home, but I’m wondering if it might put me to sleep instead of keeping me interested.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:53 pmIf Tim Tebow were a Buddhist he wouldn’t harm his karma so terribly by playing for Florida.
Tebow may make a decent few years in the NFL as a wildcat tight end. Otherwise, he’s somewhere between Danny Wuerffel and Charlie Ward as a professional.
December 13th, 2009 at 7:21 pmSo either he’s a backup NFL player, or he plays in the NBA?
December 13th, 2009 at 7:22 pmCharlie Ward had a pretty good (and very lucrative) professional career.
December 13th, 2009 at 7:33 pmBasically, I agree with everything Rob said. I just had a conversation with my FSU/UGA fan friend, and he said essentially the same thing: status as an NFL prospect doesn’t matter a lick when it comes to the Heissman. It’s a trophy for most outstanding college football player, not “guy we think will do best in the pros”. It’s a different game, and it doesn’t matter. If you want to knock Tebow’s or Wuerffel’s Heisman, make your case based on their performance 2007 and 1996 respectively, not how they did in New Orleans or whatever.
I wanted Suh to win of the finalists. I probably would have gone:
Spiller
Suh
Gerhardt
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not even convinced Ingram is the best back on his team. If Alabama’s O-line as a whole could win it, I’d give it to them. That’s the biggest reason they beat Florida last week, not Ingram.
December 13th, 2009 at 7:58 pmBuster Olney’s blog links to an article about the A’s continuing to pursue Jack Cust after not tendering him a contract.
Perhaps, I do not understand the rule, but I thought these guys were all but gone when we do not tender them a contract.
Can we now offer KJ a contract that would have been less than his arb award?
December 13th, 2009 at 8:17 pmI wish Colt Brennan had gotten more Heisman love when he was playing. I know he was pretty much a product of the system in place at Hawaii, but I thought he was pretty fun to watch. Except that Sugar Bowl, of course.
December 13th, 2009 at 8:17 pm67 – Interesting comments.
I do not think I agree so much about the mercenary tag on Byrd. He’s not “family” but he is way different than Mike Hampton and Tex. He got injured and I think he genuinely wanted to come back to prove himself on what he considered his team.
Hampton pulled a paycheck from the DL for years and wanted to get out of town the first chance he got.
How could Andruw not be “family?” He absolutely cemented that moniker when he threw Boras out of his negotiations a decade ago.
December 13th, 2009 at 8:26 pmSo how much longer will Liberty own the Braves?
Would love to see Arthur Blank get involved once Bad Bud Selig leaves town.
December 13th, 2009 at 8:40 pm@80: Yes–the Braves can sign KJ to any sized contract that he agrees to.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:04 pmGeorge Rogers had a nice NFL career.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:05 pmThere’s a deadline, though, which I think is this month. After that, he couldn’t sign with the Braves until May.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:05 pmIt would’ve been cool if Suh had won, but I’m kind of suprised he even got as much support as he did. I liked Gerhardt ahead of Ingram for the simple reason that he was the entire offense for Stanford.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:20 pmSomeone here described Tebow as a hero for some and a heel for others, which got me thinking… If Tebow can’t cut it in the NFL, he should absolutely go into pro wrestling. He’s definately big and atheletic enough, and that fan base would love him. Plus it would give me more fodder for Florida/redneck jokes.
Randall Simon–why are John Rocker jokes popping in my head?
Good luck to a second-half player getting $30MM+ over three years.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:33 pmMac, thought they did away with that May signing rule in the latest bargaining agreement (2006 maybe)? Am I wrong
December 13th, 2009 at 10:12 pmRe: #81/The ’08 Sugar Bowl
When UGA had a consistent pass rush…
Program Alert
For those who have MLB Network, there’s a really intriguing show Tuesday night at 8 pm: Bob Costas interviews Dick Allen for an hour.
BTW, for anyone who enjoys baseball history, those Costas interview shows (“Studio 42 with Bob Costas”) are really terrific. The few I’ve seen were great, especially the one about the ’60s Cardinals (with Bob Gibson & Tim McCarver) and another with Bob Feller, who’s 90-years old & remembers plenty.
December 13th, 2009 at 10:53 pm86 – So, that sounds identical to the free agent arb offer limitations?
December 13th, 2009 at 11:01 pmububba, I’ve been watching those as well. They’re really good. Costas does a nice job of asking the right questions and then getting out of the way to let them tell their stories. Those two you mention are really good!
December 14th, 2009 at 10:00 am@90,
Ububba,
I’ve watched several of those Costas interviews and, while he has extremely interesting guests, I find it difficult to watch because Costas feels the need both to ask questions and answer them. He really seems to feed the answer to the person (known as leading questions in the legal profession). I really was annoyed when he did that with Jim Bouton, one guy that really doesn’t need to be prompted. Costas just seems to do more talking than listening. I did think the McCarver/Gibson joint interview was very good, in part because it’s impossible to outtalk Tim McCarver, but I just find Costas increasingly pretentious. But he does have great guests.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:06 am@90
ububba;
I loved the interview with the 3 umpires! Maybe the Dick Allen segemnet will start HOF talk again.
There was a point when I’d have taken Allen over Reggie Jackson, but history has washed away as much of Allen’s excellence as it has his controversy.
Also, loved the ’03 playoff between Giants and Marlins yesterday. Thought both teams were better than the Phillies champs.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:15 amWuerffel definitely deserved the Heisman in ’96 (and maybe the year before too). He’s probably the best college QB to play for any Florida school.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:17 amMarc,
I can understand why someone might think that, but I think the Bouton thing was the worst one, mainly because of Bouton. It seemed like he’d told those tales so many times, he forgot to include a critical part of a story or even drop the punchline correctly.
I may be wrong, but with Bouton I think Costas had to ask the questions the way he did because he didn’t get what he wanted from Bouton the first time around.
I say that because, as someone who interviews people for a living, I know how frustrating it can be when the subject doesn’t give you anything useful. For TV, sometimes you have to ask a leading question to get what you need for air.
For the Bouton interview, it felt like the pieces they used were just part of many, many takes. There was a real choppy quality to the interview, no real flow. It was especially frustrating because, from the Ball Four book, I knew every story & the re-telling of them was a little disappointing.
I find Costas enjoyable because he’s one of the few broadcasters left who has a genuine sense of baseball history. He’s Syracuse-J-School polished (speaks in complete sentences with perfect pauses), but that’s not a bad thing in my book.
Kevin,
December 14th, 2009 at 11:00 amLoved the ump one, too.
Not that this is a referendum of course, but as much as I appreciate Costas’ elocution and grammar, he does have a tendency to speak in the first person about events he could not possibly have witnessed, a la Wynton Marsalis.
December 14th, 2009 at 11:29 amBut like Wynton, he’s a great storyteller.
And there’s nothing worse than someone who can’t tell a story.
December 14th, 2009 at 11:54 amEven the Yankees winning the Series the same year Notre Dame wins the BCS followed by a Cowboys Super Bowl?
December 14th, 2009 at 12:04 pmI used to love to hear Roy Firestone interviews. He created a relaxed environment and the interviews were very revealing.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:05 pmJohn Lackey is reportedly doing a physical for the Red Sox & apparently he may be signing a 5 year/$80+ M deal with them.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:56 pmKelly Johnson as a leadoff hitter was pretty depressing. So was Kelly Johnson batting 6th or 8th. I hope he blossoms elsewhere. Meanwhile, I really dig Prado. I believe he could excel playing all the time and Brooks Conrad would be great off the bench.
yeah maybe if Frenchy Played football every other year he’d be alright.
December 14th, 2009 at 1:05 pmI saw Bobby in line at the grocery store the other day, was tempted to ask him
why he took Hanson out of that shutout he was about to throw. I did not, Love the guy despite his recent mistake. He’s royalty to me and should be to everyone else in ATL.
I appreciate that Costas is good at his job, but he’s a little too slick for my ears. There’s no question he’s professional, though, and I’d sooner listen to his dulcet tones than Joe Buck, Tim McCarver, Joe Morgan, John Kruk, or Chip Caray.
Still, I’d trade Costas’s entire career for one more season with Skip Caray.
December 14th, 2009 at 1:15 pmAh, Skip.
He was absolutely the best. Too bad Chip isn’t more like him.
Has anyone heard the Caray kid who broadcasts for Rome? Surely, he is better than Chip.
December 14th, 2009 at 1:34 pm@96,
Ububba,
I appreciate your point about sometimes having to pull teeth to get information out of someone and maybe you are right about Bouton. But, it just seems like, in general, Costas has preconceived notions of what the interviewee should say and, if he doesn’t say it, Costas will say it for him.
I’m always surprised to hear the dislike of Joe Buck. I think he’s pretty good–he is low-key and doesn’t get overly excited like Chip, who acts as if every home run is the first in the history of the game. I actually think Al Michaels is the best, although he doesn’t do baseball anymore.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pmFunny how one whole week of good baseball has turned Brooks Conrad into a hero around here.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:06 pmThe Joe Buck backlash stems almost entirely from that Randy Moss pants-pulling-down episode, as far as I can tell. I never heard much negative against him before that, and I never really hear why people don’t like him, now. Maybe those Budweiser commercials play a role, too.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pm104,
No. Josh Caray is by far the worst announcer I’ve ever heard. All the nuances of Chip except a mono-tone voice. I’m not being hyperbolic, either. Worst. Announcer. Ever.
He doesn’t do Rome Braves games anymore, they have him doing Gwinnett games. The Rome radio announcer is some ridiculously redneck guy doing it by himself. He’s bad, but it’s entertaining at least.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pmBoston landing Lackey would be very good news for our Lowe-trading efforts, I think.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:31 pm106,
I think the same can be said about KJ’s time in Atlanta.
Kidding, kidding…
December 14th, 2009 at 2:48 pmHowever, Philadelphia landing Halladay would be very bad news for our Division-winning efforts, I think.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:48 pmHalladay and agent have checked in to a Philly hotel. There are indications that Cliff Lee will be bounced to acquire Halladay.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pmLackey to Boston: $85 M/5 years.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:10 pmHow many years does Cliff Lee have left on his current contract? And will the Phils keep him to go along with Doc Halladay?
December 14th, 2009 at 3:11 pmAccording to Buster Olney, Red Sox are also pursuing Mike Cameron.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pmLee is a free agent at the end of this season.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:21 pm109 – it almost has to happen somewhere before Lowe can be moved.
111 – I don’t know that the marginal difference between Lee and Halladay is that great.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:30 pmI am mixed about the Phillies acquiring Halladay.
I think it would assure them the division this next year, but that may be the case anyway. Is it better for our future for them to deplete their suddenly good prospect base for one year of a Halladay-Lee tandem?
I doubt they could re-sign both next year.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:37 pm2:36pm: Morosi tweets that MLB hasn’t granted the Phils permission to negotiate with Halladay yet, but a deal “looks close.”
December 14th, 2009 at 3:43 pmGotta love Ingram’s speech and interviews. Any doubts I had about him being the right choice have evaporated.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:48 pmOh – just saw that the Phils would move Lee to get Halladay.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:48 pmPirates, Cards, Astros and DBacks all interested in Kelly Johnson. Sure wish we could’ve gotten something for him. My money is on the Cards.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pmso would we be really upset for the Phils to trade Lee and prospects to acquire Halladay? I know Halladay is probably the best pitches in baseball, but I doubt he’d match what Lee did for them last season. As long as Lee leaves, Im okay with them trading for Halladay. Top to bottom our pitching is still better. Too bad we dont have a decent offense yet
December 14th, 2009 at 3:51 pmLee & Halladay together is a formidable proposition. Those 2 with someone who can close is downright frightening.
But them losing Lee, getting Halladay & having last year’s Lidge doesn’t break my heart.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:56 pmSeriously, if Brown or Taylor goes for them to upgrade Lee to Halladay, it looks like a net loss for the Phils.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:56 pmI dislike Buck for the same reason as Costas, but more so — he’s oversmooth. I dislike him more than Costas because it sounds to me like he tries to project mock gravitas in his voice. (Chip Caray does this too, and even worse. The way that he’ll pause in the middle of a sentence, to gather his thoughts but also to try to make the sentence sound… more important than it really is.)
The reason I’ll always prefer the guys like Skip Caray and Vin Scully is that they didn’t need to try to sound like a deep-voiced Impertant Person — they just described what was going on. They were more compelling, in part because their voices didn’t betray how compelling they thought they were.
Plus, yeah, obviously, Buck can be a blowhard.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pmPhillies have landed Halladay….CLIFF LEE to MARINERS….
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/6673019520
December 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pmI wonder if the deal is contingent upon a long-term arrangement for Halladay.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pmRoy Halladay, Cliff Lee at center of three-team blockbuster trade – MLB – SI.com.
According to this, he will sign an extension. I may be the only person who thinks that the Phillies downgraded.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:07 pmHalladay to the Phils, plus long day at work and receiving the grades for what has turned out to be my second worst semester at Tech. Fantastic freaking day.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:17 pm#129 – wrong, see post #123
December 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm@126 Alex—Agree with you on Buck, but I really can’t stand Costas!!
Also, I was unhappy to see Halladay go to Philly, but Lee leaving is nice. We probably match up better against Doc, with our left-handed hitting.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:21 pmHeyman is walking it back.
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/6673202446
December 14th, 2009 at 4:27 pmMac, you really think Lee is better than Halladay? As this guy would say, “Come on now.”
Why do you like Lee better than Halladay?
December 14th, 2009 at 4:30 pmWell based on age alone, I’d rather the Phils lock up Halladay for 4-5 years and big money instead of Lee, however, Lee still seems a little flukey to me. I mean he went from fighting to be a 5th starter on the Indians to Cy Young winner in no time. I always keep expecting him to regress and Halladay seems like an upgrade in the short-term.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:33 pmThen I am back to ambivalent.
If they are not giving up Lee, the Phillies are saying goodbye to Happ plus at least two more prospects. They would have a ridiculous top of the rotation, but I would expect it to last only one year.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:34 pmIt’s definitely not a downgrade, but you can’t get much better than what Lee did for them last year, especially in the playoffs. IMO, Halladay is the better pitcher, but if you’re Philly how much did actually improve your team? They replaced their stud ace with another one, yet the rest of the rotation still has plenty of question marks.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:38 pm129,
Even if it’s not a downgrade, the Phillies did what, exactly? Added half a win for $6 million and traded a few legit prospects to do so?
So they’re going to sign Halladay to an extension. Whoopee! Paying market rate for 30+ year old SP’s isn’t exactly the best way to maxamize value.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:43 pmSo apparently the Angels are about to sign Hideki Matsui. They sure are getting a regular guy:
December 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pmEasy now – ATL is trying to get out from under one of those as we speak
December 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pmIf the Phils had to give up pitching (Drabek, or even Hamels or Happ) to upgrade from Lee (A Cy Young caliber lefty) to Halladay then I think they stepped backward. Lee + Happ is better, IMO, than Halladay and whoever replaces Happ.
But I do say Halladay is better than Lee.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:50 pm140—An extensive porn collection? Or a horny Japanese player?
December 14th, 2009 at 4:59 pmSimulpost with 139. I was referring to 138. I am pretty sure it would be much easier to get out from under an extensive porn collection than Derek Lowe just now.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pmYeah, I was tryin’ to make a funny.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:03 pmI don’t think the Phillies will have to give up very much in this deal. MAYBE one prospect, but probably not. While I think it’s more of an upgrade than most (with benefits like a higher GB rate, better roster construction since he’s a RHP, etc.), I’d be surprised if they gave up Happ, Drabek, or Hamels. One of their OFs is possible, but I think lower-level pitching prospects are more likely. The real question is, what are the Mariners giving up?
As for the other big news, I’m loving this deal that Lackey signed. Makes Lowe’s contract look much more tame. I still don’t think we’ll get back anything of real value, but maybe it’ll be a little easier to move him now.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:07 pmAssuming Philly really is sending Lee or Hamels to Seattle, this is a good deal *for Atlanta.* The primary division competition doesn’t get that much better, and Anaheim is in the Derek Lowe market even more than before (especially if Lackey to Boston pans out.)
December 14th, 2009 at 5:07 pmAll right, Wren. Do your thing.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:07 pmClearly, the Phillies are trying to win another World Series or two while their core is still reasonably young. Assuming that this does involve trading Lee, it probably is because Halladay is apparently more willing to sign an extension. That might make sense, but given the vagaries of the playoffs, I’m not sure it is wise to give up so much of your farm system; they would have a good shot at making the playoffs anyway. Even if they keep both Lee and Halladay, it doesn’t guarantee they even get to the World Series, much less win it (although it probably means everyone else in the division is playing for the wild card).
December 14th, 2009 at 5:08 pmMarc,
Agree. The time is now for the Phils.
Re: Matsui
My Yankee friends & I would always argue about who had a better life off the field—Jeter or Matsui. I always said Matsui.
FWIW, the writers up here always loved Matsui. When he arrived, everyone thought it was going to be a daily circus with the Japanese press.
But when Matsui came to his first spring training in 2003, he took all the US/NY Yankee beat writers to an off-the-record dinner in Tampa. He got to know them a little bit and explained how the whole Japanese press thing would work. (Basically, he had to give them a little something every day.) According to the beat people, he’s a really likable guy & it was a great start for him.
Can you imagine anyone else doing that? In terms of dealing with his country’s press corps, apparently, he’s the opposite of Ichiro.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:14 pmI propose that Braves Journal’s tagline should be changed from “Home runs don’t kill rallies. Greg Norton kills rallies.” to “An extensive porn collection? Or a horny Japanese player?”
December 14th, 2009 at 5:16 pmUm… No. I don’t think Google would like that, and I know my spam filter won’t.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:16 pmI don’t see how the Phils would not be giving up at least one player of significance. Again, I maintain that even if Lee is going to Seattle, the Mariners are not bearing the full cost of this trade. Otherwise, Philly would not be involved.
It would be Halladay for the still unknown Mariners package, directly.
If I am bearing the full cost of the trade, then I better get the best pitcher in the deal.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:17 pmhttp://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10523430/Source:-Halladay-to-Phils,-Lee-to-M%27s-in-blockbuster
“As the blockbuster nears completion, the Braves are an interested bystander. The Angels now appear to be among the favorites to acquire Derek Lowe. They could offer outfielder Juan Rivera, who is the type of right-handed run producer that Atlanta is seeking.”
Reactions?
December 14th, 2009 at 5:18 pmReportedly, the Phils are giving up (at least) Michael Taylor.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:18 pmThat would be great.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:18 pmIt’s a downgrade because the team they have to beat is us, and we hit righties much better than lefties.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:20 pm#153 – If we can get Juan Rivera for Lowe, Id be very surprised. But hell yeah, you make that deal immediately
December 14th, 2009 at 5:22 pmagreed…make the deal for Rivera. and i know he had some crazy illness last yr but i like Conor Jackson for 1B too…
December 14th, 2009 at 5:24 pmI don’t like the move for Philly and I think it ends up ultimately a wash in terms of production, but I’ll call it a loss with the Phillies giving up Taylor and others. Cliff Lee is younger and would give you the essentially the same production as Halladay.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:25 pmI hear a choir of Angels singing:
Come pitch a ball, Derek Lowe, Derek Lowe. We’ve got some Juan to trade and everybody knows. People know we need pitching and them people sho aren’t fools. Cause Derek Lowe is the finest pitcher, that we can find right now.
Old Derek was a tall man with a glove on his left. He kept in shape pretty good and didn’t get no heft. He always made a living, throwing the white stitched ball. On the day he pitched in Orange, he worked those guys but good. Cause Derek Lowe is the finest pitcher that we can find right now.
Come pitch a ball, Derek Lowe, Derek Lowe. We’ve got some Wood to trade and everybody knows. People know we need pitching and them people sho aren’t fools. And Derek Lowe is the finest pitcher that we can find right now.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:28 pmI would do the Rivera deal, though he is one of the worst baserunners in the league.
What are his existing contract details?
December 14th, 2009 at 5:29 pmWhere the Phillies are going to come out is that Halladay is going to extend on what are probably pretty reasonable terms. Like 4 or 5 years 18 to 20 million. Lee wanted 23 million to extend. He is toast.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:30 pmI suppose I would do the Rivera deal—but I’d much rather trade Lowe for a middling prospect and sign Mike Cameron.
Parish,
December 14th, 2009 at 5:31 pmRivera is owed $4.25+ million in 2010 and $5.25+ million in 2011.
Rivera has two more years at 3.25 million. An awfully good player for that.
Just think, that would clear space for the Angels to play Gary Mathews, Jr more.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:32 pmThat Rivera contract makes that a deal I would definitely do. I am guessing we would have to throw money into that deal.
I would also take Peter Bourjos along with Brandon Wood.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:36 pmHey, we wanted righthanded power in return for Lowe and Juan Rivera is righthanded power. Works for me.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:40 pmFreeman is still Braves’ long-term answer at 1B | ajc.com.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:45 pm@166,
Is there any way we could do that trade straight-up? Seems to good to be true.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:47 pmThe Angels might not have any interest in parting with Rivera, but if the Braves want Rivera, I think you’re going to have to take on a large portion of Lowe’s salary.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:51 pmLowe plus cash. It would have to be.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:51 pmIf the Angels would give Rivera for Lowe, I’d pay up to 3.5 a year on Lowe’s contract.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:54 pmI don’t think it would have to be very much cash at all, and if it did, I wouldn’t want to do it.
Rivera’s a good player and he hits lefties well, but he’s over 30, is only OK (bad for a corner OF) against righties, has trouble staying healthy, and isn’t very valuable on defense.
171—Giving them Lowe and $15 million for Juan Rivera would be insane.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:56 pm171—I misread the decimal in “3.5″ as a hyphen, but giving them Lowe and $10.5 million would be insane, too.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pmBTW, with both the Lackey signing & Halladay deal (apparently) going down today, legions of Mets fans are currently being talked off the bridge.
Not sure why they thought they had a legit chance at either of these guys (without, say, giving up Reyes for Halladay), but it’s always amusing to hear their collective angst.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:12 pmBased on what they’re reporting for the pieces of the deal, I’m not at all worried as a Braves fan. Halladay is better than Lee, for sure, but with giving up Michael Taylor too, this isn’t that great of a deal for Philadelphia. Label me “not worried”.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:12 pm2010 Fan Projections
Roy Halladay – 6.7 WAR
Cliff Lee – 6.2 WAR
2010 Salary
Roy Halladay – $15.75 M
Cliff Lee – $9 M
So the Phillies traded a 6.2-win pitcher making $9 million and a few legit prospects for a 6.7-win pitcher making $15.75 million.
I fail to see how that’s a good move for the short-term or long-term. Is consolidating an extra 0.5 wins into 1 roster spot worth $6.75 million and a few prospects? Is it even worth the prospects? Is it even worth the $6.75 million? Is it even worth $3 million? The answers are probably no, no, no, and about.
Unless the Phillies think Lee is fundamentally worse than his 08-09 form or Halladay is better than his 08-09 form, what the hell was Amaro thinking?
Not to mention the privilege of paying Halladay whatever the market would next year in a contract extension…
December 14th, 2009 at 6:13 pmNice, PW.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:14 pmJuan Rivera is not a good player. His average OPS over the past 3 years is sub-.800. Just because we had Garett Anderson in LF last year doesn’t mean acquiring Rivera is a good thing.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:26 pmThe only way this makes sense is if they think they can extend Halladay at a below-market value — and 3 years, $60 million is certainly below-market, if the sources are correct.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:29 pmAny thoughts on our old friends, Fred McGriff and Andres Galarraga, appearing on the 2010 HoF ballot? Would you vote for them? I would, but reluctantly in Galarraga’s case.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:42 pm179,
Right. The $20 M/Year figure is probably about market value (he might have gotten $25 M/Yr on the open market, but I doubt it), but he’ll be entering his 34-year-old season next winter, and a 34-year-old 6+ win pitcher still gets at least 4 years, I’d imagine. Still, you’re not talking about signing him for Tim Hudson money. You’re sinking $20 million / year into 1 roster spot, and a 3-year deal for a 33-34 year old (…does the alleged contract extension start in ’10, replacing his current deal, or ’11?…) pitcher is a rather large risk.
I still can’t get to near what Amaro allegedly gave up.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:44 pmKeltner List: Fred McGriff.
Maybe I’ll do one for Galarraga, if I have a particularly energetic day.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pmcameron in serious talks w/ boston
December 14th, 2009 at 7:00 pmIf McGriff were to make it, does he make it as a Brave?
December 14th, 2009 at 7:13 pmI’ve been looking forward to the resumption of Keltner lists for a long time. I can’t wait to see the Keltner list for Andruw Jones.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:22 pmPeter, as always impeccable analysis. Aside from the projected discount maybe the only thing that makes this a winner for the Phils is that Lee is more likely to turn into a pumpkin than Halladay.
I don’t want Juan Rivera. When he is good he aint that good and when he is bad he is really bad. But if we get him straight up for Lowe then ok I reckon.
Even if the Phils get Halladay, I ain’t scared. Lee AND Halladay I’d be scared shitless but dumping one ace for another. Ok as others have pointed out more eloquently no harm no foul.
Alex thanks for the Matsui thing. Just a regular old Japanese guy living the American dream. Love it.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:30 pmIf I was Frank Wren, I’d be dancing up and down the corridors with the news that three big name pitchers are off the market.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:31 pmUh, first base, anyone?
Freddie ain’t ready, and what would make the Braves prettydamnformidable is a cleanup hitter at first base.
I know Prince doesn’t necessarily get along with his Daddy, but blood runs thick and Cecil is giving lessons to 10-year-olds in Atlanta …
Just sayin …
December 14th, 2009 at 7:43 pmI personally would vote for McGriff, but probably he will be a VC selection, at best. As many have said before, he has the bad luck of having a great early to mid career in a low offense era, and finishing in a high offense one. He will be compared, unfairly in my eye, to those with higher counting stats but lower rate stats.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:04 pm6:55pm: J.A. Happ and Joe Blanton took physicals and could be a part of the deal, writes Rob Maaddi of the Associated Press. Domonic Brown also took a physical today, who is said to be coveted by the Jays.
6:46pm: “People” tell Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun that Aumont is not a part of the deal (via Twitter).
December 14th, 2009 at 8:04 pm6:38pm: It is “believed” that Cameron would play left field for the BoSox, with Jacoby Ellsbury in center and J.D. Drew in right, writes Jerry Crasnick of ESPN.com. This would make recently-acquired Jeremy Hermida the team’s fourth outfielder.
The Cubs and Mariners both had interest in Cameron, but shied away for different reasons. The Cubbies were waiting on a taker for Milton Bradley while the M’s continue to focus on Jason Bay. The Braves also had interest, but it now it sounds as though Boston has the inside track.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:05 pmMcGriff yes. Galarraga no. Galarraga is the starter for the 1990s HOF very good.
McGriff and Larkin are HOFers, Fred by a nose, Barry by a mile.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:06 pmno one has a clue who is in this deal
7:04pm: Drabek and “other top [Phillies] prospects” will be involved in the deal, according to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com (via Twitter). According to Salisbury, Brown will remain with the club
December 14th, 2009 at 8:08 pmI can’t make sense of the deal either. I thought Philly brought in Seattle so they wouldn’t have to deal Drabek.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:14 pm“Once the extension is complete, the Phillies are expected send three prospects to Toronto. A source identified those prospects as Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and catcher Travis D’Arnaud. The Blue Jays would also get a prospect from Seattle, possibly Canadian pitcher Phillippe Aumont. The Phillies could also end up with a prospect from Seattle. The Mariners are a key to the deal as they are expected to get Lee and his $9 million salary from the Phillies. The Phillies have a strict $140 million payroll so moving Lee appears to be a necessity.”
http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landing_09?Fever-Pitch-Pursuit-of-Halladay-Almost-O=1&blockID=103216&feedID=704
H/T tripon over at BBTF
December 14th, 2009 at 8:15 pmThis seems like a lot of hoopla to upgrade from Lee to Halladay.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:15 pmwait so Philly traded 4 guys for 1/2 a season of Lee, then traded Lee + 3 more prospects for Halladay? 7 prospects for Halladay, really?
December 14th, 2009 at 8:17 pmaccording to mark bowman, cliff lee might not be part of the deal either. if that’s the case, we now have the 2nd best pitching staff in the division, and a much worse offense.
halladay, lee, happ, hamels, blanton> vazquez, hudson, jj, tommy, kawakami
December 14th, 2009 at 8:18 pmI’m really not sold on J.A. Happ.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:24 pmIf Lee isn’t part of the deal, I would be almost certain Blanton and Happ are gone. So that rotation wouldn’t be quite filled out.
And it doesn’t make sense to me that the Mariners would give up prospects for the other two. Almost certain Lee is part of the deal.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:33 pmdont see Philly being able to afford both of those guys
December 14th, 2009 at 8:36 pm200,
December 14th, 2009 at 8:50 pmOr Hamels.
7:53pm: Mike Cameron has signed with Boston, the AP reports.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:56 pm203 – that’s a drag. Better hope we can get an OF for Lowe.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:01 pmtwo yrs 15.5 for Cameron
wouldnt have minded that signing here in Atl
December 14th, 2009 at 9:01 pmMind? I’d prefer it! Let’s vent!
December 14th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
December 14th, 2009 at 9:16 pmThis is why we are not Mets fans; via MLBtraderumors forum:
Mets need Derrick Lowe!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would the Braves be interested in re-acquiring Jeff Franceour.
As a met fan, I wouldn’t want this to happen but we need a starting pitch to go with Santana, and this may be our only chance.. especially if the Angels are offering Juan Rivera.
The Mets then can trade SP john maine to the brewers for Corey Hart.
Lineup:
C- Santos
1b- Murphy
2b- Castillo
SS- Reyes
3b- Wright
LF- ???
CF- Beltran
RF- Corey Hart
Rotation:
- Santana
- Lowe
- Perez
- Pelfrey
- Niese
Posted by: Barrettman | December 14, 2009 at 07:09 PM
Huh? So many things wrong with that post.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:26 pmwhat an awful team, Lowe would deserve better
December 14th, 2009 at 9:27 pmThere’s a chance “Barrettman” is “Steve Phillips.”
It looks like he solved every problem the 2010 Mets will encounter.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:28 pmso now the Phillies are getting Aumont?
December 14th, 2009 at 9:31 pmNo one has a clue. People are just throwing shit out there to see if it sticks. Same as usual.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:42 pmI’d have been ecstatic to get Cameron on that contract.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:43 pmArgh. Would have liked to have Cameron…
December 14th, 2009 at 9:45 pmSaw on another board that Matsui is to the Angels for 1/6.5. There goes another, albeit more creative, option.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:51 pmMatsui cant play LF anymore
December 14th, 2009 at 10:01 pmI would have loved to sign Cameron to that contract. As always, though, his signing that contract with Boston is not proof he would have signed it with us.
Please, no Marlon Byrd.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:03 pmMatsui couldn’t play in the NL. He’s a DH now.
Really? Y’all would pay 15 for 2 years of Cameron? McLouth = Cameron offensively.
I know right handed bat, better defender but ….. I’m not as sold.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:11 pmMcLouth + Cameron = 2010 Braves being better
December 14th, 2009 at 10:13 pmi’d like an order of glaus with a side of nady…to go! and dont forget my sheff salad.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:14 pmThe appeal of Cameron to me isn’t based on him so much as what we might do without him. You know, like sign Marlon Byrd. Or eat a lot of Lowe’s contract in order to get Juan Rivera. I don’t have a problem with keeping Lowe if the deal isn’t right. What are we going to spend the money on, really? Not Holliday or Bay, it would seem. I’d almost rather keep Lowe than dump him for nothing and settle for Laroche and Nady.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:18 pm210 – Classic!
December 14th, 2009 at 10:23 pm215, 218 – I was referring to 1B. Matsui has expressed a willingness to play there to expand the number of teams he could have gone to.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:25 pmThey have to trade a pitcher. We’re not good enough to win with the offense we currently have and there’s (presumably) not enough cash to adequately address it without trading a pitcher to either clear salary or acquire an cost controlled bat.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:38 pmWe might not be able to win with the offense we have right now, but I don’t think we’re that far away. I think that our lineup was very respectable once we got Schafer, Frenchy and KJ out of the lineup.
It seems very likely we will trade a pitcher, but our situation isn’t so dire that we have to give Lowe up for nothing.
December 14th, 2009 at 11:27 pmits was respectable because Laroche was ridiculous, which, we dont have him anymore. We really need an OF, good 1B, and a very good bench bat
December 14th, 2009 at 11:35 pm225 – I take issue on the Schafer part. He was playing injured since about the fourth game of the year.
I think the guy is going to be pretty good.
December 14th, 2009 at 11:57 pmholliday just got offered an 8/16 per deal.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:16 amWow, that Holliday offer. . .
Bummed that Cameron is signing with Boston. But, I agree with Weldon at 217 that it doesn’t mean we could have had him at same price.
I think the FO is confident that McLouth, Diaz, Hayward is a good outfield. What we really need is a great 1B. I’m looking at you, Santa!
December 15th, 2009 at 12:29 amParish – that may be true, but getting him out and McLouth into the lineup was integral to our second-half surge.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:38 amAgreed, Weldon.
But, I think a McClouth, Schafer, Heyward outfield will be an excellent unit very soon. Of course, we may have to wait until 2011.
If Schafer had not lost so much time in the last two years, it would not be bad to see him rotating with McClouth and Diaz.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:53 amSo Matsui and Guerrero will split DH duties for the Angels?
December 15th, 2009 at 2:18 amNo, Vlad’s career in Anaheim is over. He’s a free agent & he won’t be re-signed by the Angels.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:25 am#233
Makes perfect sense. Thanks!
December 15th, 2009 at 2:27 amMan, letting Cameron get away sucks. I just read the ESPN report on the tentative agreement and it mentions Atlanta, Chicago and Seattle as suitors, and then goes on to say that Chicago couldn’t get the deal done because Milton Bradley is still on the payroll, and that Seattle couldn’t get it done because they’re pursuing Bay at the same time, but the report offers no insight as to why the Braves lost out. He’s even signing to play left field. If the Braves were offering the same money and the chance to play center, which they should have been, how could he not have taken that? I seriously don’t get it. I was looking forward to seeing that move get done more than any other this offseason – the team could use a good defender like him, especially at a premium position.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:48 amMaybe Cameron thinks he has a better chance to win in Boston.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:57 amHung out with a couple Red Sox fans tonight at a bar. God they’re obnoxious.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:18 amAnd maybe Wren didn’t want to give Cameron that second year. Perhaps Wren still believes in Schafer and that fancy batting cage, doesn’t want to block him in case he’s ready by 2011.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:14 amNick Johnson stil available?
December 15th, 2009 at 6:52 amI am not in love with him, but a 1B would be nice to have, him and Nady would be okay if we ant deal Lowe for something.
cliff;
Thanks for the Derek Lowe song. I can’t quite pick up the tune. Maybe some other team will trade for him and we’ll all be singing.
Mac;
December 15th, 2009 at 7:44 amThanks for replaying the Keltner on the Crime Dog. Your effort’s much appreciated. We’ll know you’re feeling much better when “the Road to Bristol’ appears this winter!
@238 – plausible. The outfield as it stands now is from left to right Diaz, McLouth, Heyward with Schafer in the wings. The second year for Cameron would have been a 7 million dollar albatross if the Braves projected arrival time for Heyward and Schafer is on target.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:05 amSorry, Matt Holliday isn’t worth that kind of money. An eight-year deal for any player outside of Albert Pujols is insane.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:49 am#235 – DOB said the Braves possibly wouldnt go two years with Cameron. Thats his guess why he went to Boston so quickly
December 15th, 2009 at 9:11 amI’m pretty dang bummed about not getting Cameron, the only affordable “perfect fit” among the FA outfielders. Again, I say:
Kevin,
December 15th, 2009 at 9:15 amSkynyrd’s “Curtis Lowe”.
Not sure the second year for Cameron would have been an “albatross.” Provided Schafer suddenly became a viable starting, MBL-caliber outfielder, they could have dealt Cameron or McLouth before or during the 2011 season. It doesn’t make sense to me either that the Braves let him get away. Then again, signing affordable, free agent outfielders has never been Wren’s strength.
As for Boston, Cameron is a much more affordable substitute for Bay, and now, after locking up Lackey, they’ll pursue a Miguel Cabrera/Adrian Gonzalez type. Must be nice!
December 15th, 2009 at 9:24 amI’ll bet the Boston fanbase hates it though.
December 15th, 2009 at 9:55 amSo, this Halladay-Lee thing isn’t really a 3-team deal. It’s two separate 2-team deals: Phils trade Lee to Seattle for prospects, and trade (completely different) prospects to Toronto for Halladay. There’s no connection between Seattle and Toronto in this, at least according to the latest updates.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:03 amI’m ready for some D. Lowe rumors. Come on twitter!
December 15th, 2009 at 10:03 amMaybe we’ll trade him to the Red Sox for Cameron!
December 15th, 2009 at 10:07 amCan baseball contracts have disincentives?
Something like where a player would have to forfeit a percentage of his salary if he strikes out 150 times and doesn’t hit 30 homeruns.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:08 amPersonally, I’m really glad the Braves dodged the Mike Cameron bullet.
Now if we can just NOT get Marlon Byrd….
December 15th, 2009 at 10:15 amYeah, I don’t think a second year of Cameron, costing a good bit less than he’d likely likely be worth, could be considered an albatross, either. It wouldn’t be like our situation with Lowe – the team’s overpaying Lowe, and they still might be able to move him and his contract. They just moved Soriano, a less valuable player than Cameron, without agreeing to pay any of his salary, and his salary is higher than Cameron’s reported yearly salary, right? I’m still confused.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:21 am250—I’m pretty sure contract incentives can’t be tied to performance, so the same would apply to disincentives, whether or not disincentives are allowed as a general rule.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am247 – Stu, that’s how I’m reading it too.
As two separate deals, this looks better for the Phillies. I am still not convinced it will be a net gain for them.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am252 – Yes. Signing Cameron to that deal would have been good for the Bravos.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:37 amJuan Pierre to White Sox? http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo/status/6699446791
December 15th, 2009 at 10:53 amYeah, we’re half-assing the outfield again.
Actually, IIRC, they were looking at Nady to play mostly first base. So, maybe we’re half-assing the whole offense again.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:01 amYeah, I kind of figured the two-year deal is the reason they didn’t do it, but it’s still depressing. We don’t have three Jason Heywards in the farm system.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:06 amWe don’t have three Jason Heywards in the farm system.
Nate McLouth is still a pretty good outfielder.
What’s wrong with Nady-McLouth-Heyward-Diaz?
December 15th, 2009 at 11:14 amAn outfield mix of McLouth, Diaz, Nady, Hayward is fine with me – as long as we get a very good bat for first. Right now, I’m hoping Wren has something special up his sleeve like a trade no one has even thought about yet – but part of me worries that Nady is the best he’s got.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:16 am259—It’s <<< McLouth-Cameron-Diaz-Heyward. Better than Francoeur + anything, of course, but I had (not unreasonably) hoped for better.
260—It sure feels like it’s going to be Nady and Rivera.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:18 amI don’t think that we should look at the Phils-Jays-Mariners deal as two separate deals. They are connected because one piece won’t happen without the other.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:19 am@240,
Stu correctly identified “The Ballad of Curtis Lowe”. It is one of my favorites as to tune and words. The story of the young (apparently white) kid learning the blues from an old black man in the rural South (so often repeated especially with Hank Williams, Sr., yeah that is right, Sr.)
I was just inspired (in some undoubtedly strange way).
December 15th, 2009 at 11:22 amIf the plan is Nady and Rivera + a trade of Lowe, shouldn’t that leave extra money on the table?
December 15th, 2009 at 11:22 amYes, it should, Jay. I was talking about that with AAR yesterday. If I’m optimistic, I think maybe they’ll use that money on Vazquez or Jurrjens or Escobar extensions. If I’m pessimistic, I think maybe Liberty Media will just pocket the extra money.
We ought to be able to bring in a real bat if we unload Lowe’s contract, but this apparent obsession with Xavier Nady is worrisome. To me, anyway.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:24 amA shout out to ububba,
I remember maybe two years ago posting here on the tune that sounded like it was stolen from “Werewolves of London” (which you identified as the Kid Rock Song “Singing Sweet Home Alabama”).
Well, my 12 year old daughter is a pretty good musical type (singer, piano, french horn, and a country fan, primarily, sad to say). She was with me in the car Saturday and those familiar bars started up. She was surprised at the words and she said, “So that’s the other song, huh?”
December 15th, 2009 at 11:41 amI think the Angels either (1) have to hope against realistic possibility or (2) sign Pineiro and maybe another pitcher or (3) swing a trade for Lowe.
With Boston signing Lackey, I think their next move is to try Buckholtz plus (earlier it was either Westmoreland or Casey Kelly maybe plus minor pieces which seemed o.k. to Padresfrom the rumors, but Boston was balking at Buckholtz) for A. Gon.
What we need to happen is Medlin plus Schafer plus a minor piece or two for A. Gon. Then, OF becomes a lot less of a need, doesn’t it?
December 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am@267,
Replace “Medlen and Schafer” with “Hanson and Heyward” and they’d listen. And thankfully that ain’t happening.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:56 amDoes it bother anyone that the Phillies apparently have a payroll of $145 million, while the Braves is in the $90s? This is quickly becoming an expensive neighborhood that the Braves may have trouble keeping up.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pmThe Mets spent $149 million last year. That boggles the mind.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pmRobBroad4th,
Do you really think that Westmoreland is the proven equal of Heyward? Do you really think Buckholtz is the proven equal of Hanson?
Trades should not be based on what number of the trading team’s prospect list a prospect is, but rather of the general consensus estimates of the ranking of the prospect. Heyward is 90% a FRED MCGRIFF type hitter or better, with at least ML average or slightly above right field fielding skills.
Hanson has proven himself, already, as a consistent #3 starter or better. Buckholtz has had implosions off and on over and over.
Medlin is a slight step down from Buckholtz based on scouting reputation. Based on minor league and major league stats, not even a step down. Buckholtz has probably lost a pre arb year in his call ups leaving him 5 cost controlled years. Medlin has 6 AND 3 option years if they are needed. Buckholtz has no more than 1 additional option year.
The Padres need a center fielder. They have some semblance of talent to cover the corners even after moving Blanks. Schafer should be able to be close to ML average next year with 6 cost controlled years. Westmoreland is a few years away (as is Casey Kelly).
December 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm@267 – The Sox may go after A. Gonzalez, but they don’t have to. They could play Youkilis at first and sign Beltre for 3rd.
I’d like to see them go that route, then the Braves could approach the Pads without Boston in the mix.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pmUh, Billy?
December 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm[Sighs.]
December 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm@271,
Just seems like that wouldn’t be enough based on what they were asking for for Peavy, but there’s nothing I’d rather be wrong about. And where did you hear that Red Sox rumor? I haven’t seen anything like that, but maybe it got buried under the Cliff Lee-Halladay rumors.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pmSo Phil Collins is in the Rock ‘N Roll Hall of Fame.
I’m going to go do horrible things.
On a side note, as someone who lives about two hours from the Hall, the Springsteen fans on the board should get there before the current Boss exhibit closes. It’s absolutely terrific, even better than the Joe Strummer exhibit that was there a few years ago. I think its up until April, but you’ll have to check the hall site for that.
I believe they are showing the U2-3D concert through January in a new theater as well.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pmcant see twitter from work
December 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pmcsg, you may want to try Twitter Gadget in gmail (if you have that) as that’s the only way I can see it at work… it’s not perfect, but it’s not too bad.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pmCsg-
Twitter (Olney) link says Jays are going to trade Michael Taylor to Oakland for Brett Wallace as soon as the Halladay deal is done.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:33 pmdont have gmail, but Im just going to start bringing my laptop to work with me also
December 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pmThe HOF’s a better place with the Hollies and Stooges. I probably prefer Bunny Wailer to Jimmy Cliff (and seriously, if we’re putting reggae into the Hall of Fame, then Bad Brains need to be in there), but whatever. If ABBA is the price of putting Iggy Pop and Scotty Asheton in the Hall, then so be it.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pmFunny call to WFAN today from a disgruntled Mets fan:
Radio Hosts: “Now we have Joey from Bayside. What’s up, Joey?”
Joey: “Hey, can you guys keep it down? Omar’s trying to nap.”
R&RHOF
The Stooges. Finally. Congrats, Mr. Osterberg.
Guilty Pleasure: I actually like ABBA, but they ain’t rock-n-roll.
Went to the Rock Hall back in ’05. Was surprised how much I enjoyed it. The big exhibit then was The Who’s “Tommy”—the album, the film (which is hysterical, especially the bits with Oliver Reed) and the Broadway show.
As far as music exhibits go, I’d also recommend Seattle’s Experience Music Project, which is more esoteric & even more obsessive.
Cliff,
Piano, huh? Has your daughter yet been introduced to Allen Toussaint (New Orleans legend), Roy Bittan (E Street Band) or Steve Nieve (Elvis Costello’s pianist)?
Love “The Ballad of Curtis Lowe,” too. For kids of my generation growing up in a town like Columbus, Ga., it was almost the law to like Skynyrd. (They easily replaced the Allmans when they ran into their troubles.) And Skynyrd’s second album (“Second Helping”) is still their best, IMO.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:41 pmbtw, Red Sox are after Nady for a utility role
December 15th, 2009 at 1:41 pmI actually think giving up Heyward for Gonzalez would be too much, but I think the Pads would take it.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pmMaybe it has always been this way, but man, it sure seems like there is some lousy reporting going on this offseason. The Halladay-Lee reporting was the biggest cluster@#$% I can remember but now the 8yr/$16mil offer from STL to Holliday appears to be completely bogus as they are only willing to go to 5 years.
Are we going to have to institute a universal Furcal Rule?
December 15th, 2009 at 2:36 pmWhat’s wrong with Nady-McLouth-Heyward-Diaz?
Other than the fact that Nady stinks, nothing at all. Seriously, I don’t get the Nady love. I don’t want a .335 OBP in my outfield every day.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pmJust saw “The Hangover” for the first time. Highly recommended if you haven’t seen it yet.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:06 pmOlney says Lackey’s deal is 5yr/$87.5 million so 17.5 a year.
And “The Hangover” was quite funny. Would watch again just for the end credits.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:26 pmI don’t think there’s much love for Nady exactly. But I could live with him posting an OPS of .800, which would make him a significant upgrade over ACHE.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:26 pmNobody seems to be talking about it, but I keep seeing reports of the Phillies’ interest in Smoltz. I think that would arguably be worse than Glavine going to the Mets. It would feel an awful lot like the whole Favre fiasco, actually.
Would Nady be playing in the outfield or first base? Would he want to play out there after 2 Tommy John surgeries?
December 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pmSmoltz? Dead to me. Don’t care where he plays, as long as it ain’t here.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:50 pmI think the Red Sox will get Adrian Gonzalez now, and St Louis’ offer for Holliday seems too big to refuse.
That would leave the sluggers obviously left on the market as Cabrera and Bay and I’d hate to get Bay at what he’s asking.
I’m still hoping for a story on Cabrera drinking to get overblown and Detroit deciding they want rid of him and will eat some salary, hopefully after Boston fill their need for an infield corner.
I just can’t see us going into Bobby’s last season just making do with the offense again.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:57 pmCase in point Buster now says $82.5 over 5 for Lackey, same as Burnett. Twitter is the death of accuracy.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:00 pmIf Smoltz goes to Philly it won’t keep me up nights.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:21 pm@275,
The Red Sox after A. Gon has been an off and on rumor, but after the Lackey signing, ESPN Insider Rumors reports that the Red Sox are getting back on A. Gon.
As to what the Pads WILL take, I don’t know. I was trying to compare what the reports seemed to say the Padres would accept (Buckholtz with either Westmoreland or Casey Kelly) to what the Braves MIGHT do. I really think Medlin / Schafer is better than what the Sox were asked to do by the Padres. The Padres may not agree.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:29 pmHmm. I remember seeing A Gon-to-Boston rumors around the deadline but nothing on MLBTR lately. If that proposal by the Red Sox is close to accurate, then I have to agree that Medlen and Schafer definitely look better.
Then again, I’m biased.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:34 pmI find it interesting that none of these moves are confirmed yet.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:35 pmPlease NO NADY !! What has he ever done ??? Nothing … I would rather have Marlon Byrd if thats what we are shooting for !!!!
December 15th, 2009 at 4:49 pmI would rather have Nady than Byrd, but that’s not saying much.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:52 pmLunardi’s Bracketology is out. He’s got Kentucky as a 1, Tennessee as a 2, Florida as a 3, Mississippi as a 4, Miss St as an 8 and Vandy as an 11 seed as one of the last four in. Sure would be nice to get 6 back to the tourney after last year.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:58 pm#299, apparently the Cubs are intensifying their efforts to get Marlon Byrd.
Aw, shucks.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:02 pmNady has power and Byrd, despite good numbers in that park, really doesn’t. Still, Nady’s injury would make me wary.
#300
Hate to say it—because I am certainly no Kentucky fan—but UK has been awesome so far this year. I’ve watched 3 of their games (one in person) and I can’t help but find them fascinating.
They don’t even know how to play yet, but they have height, athleticism, enough shooting (it seems) and the best player in the country. They seem to block every shot near the basket & they have runs that are just astounding.
It’s still way early & Calipari may find a way to blow it, but this could turn out to be the best team he’s ever had.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:21 pmStu, I still don’t understand why you like Marlon Byrd so much.
Since Ububba brought up the piano, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention that Dr. John’s Gumbo is one of the best albums ever. And, of course, if you like that ya gotta check out Professor Longhair and Huey Smith.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:25 pmI really enjoy all of that Specialty era New Orleans stuff – Percy Mayfield, Joe Liggins, Lloyd Price, etc.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:42 pmlove the New Orleans music………for anyone who’s interested and hasn’t heard them, check out the Subdudes and the Radiators
December 15th, 2009 at 5:53 pm#303
Check out James Booker while you’re at it. His “Junco Partner” is a classic.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:59 pm300 – Seriously? One of the last four in?!?
Weren’t we #24 in the nation a couple of days ago?
I guess it really hurt to lose to WKU.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:05 pmI’m surprised he even has us in the field; we really don’t deserve to be, at this point. That’s all RPI (which is all SOS).
Of course, Lunardi is really, really bad at his job, so his projections are meaningless, especially this early.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:07 pmNady is less good than Diaz, and having two platoon RH OFs is redundant. The Braves need to add an OF and a 1B. One needs to be RH. The other… not really as necessary. I mean, there’s Chipper and McCann and McLouth who do better vs. RHPs, but you’ve got a couple of right-handed hitters in Escobar and Prado who are expected to make major contributions. There’s no reason to go overboard trying to get guys who mash lefties at this point.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:22 pmso we are down to Derosa/Nady/Laroche/Dye and Byrd. I just dont see this team adding a significant bat to the lineup. Ill take depth over no depth, but its disappointing with the pitching staff that is here.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:53 pmwhich would make him a significant upgrade over ACHE.
Anything would be an upgrade over ACHE. That’s a silly way to go about evaluating a player personnel move. “Well, he does have a career .335 on-base percentage and is coming off of elbow reconstructive surgery, but he’s better than one of the worst regulars in baseball last year.”
Sweet.
December 15th, 2009 at 7:02 pmWe are going to be counting on a lot from Heyward.
Maybe, Schafer can be ready to go sooner rather than later. Don’t forget, he did flat out win the job in ST last year.
December 15th, 2009 at 7:19 pmI wonder if Beane would be willing to flip Taylor to Atlanta…..
December 15th, 2009 at 9:11 pmKansas, Kentucky and Syracuse look like the best teams in the country to me so far.
What about Overbay? If Wren can trade Lowe for Rivera, is there enough room in the payroll to add Nady and Overbay(via trade)?
An outfield of Heyward-McClouth-Rivera-Diaz and a 1B platoon of Overbay-Nady might not be such a bad thing.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:35 pmMatt Winer has signed with Turner Sports. I don’t know if that means he’s the new guy to replace Chip Caray (and thus PeachtreeTV)… I didn’t think Winer was a baseball guy.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:59 pmMeet the Mets
Best two and a half paragraphs ever?
December 15th, 2009 at 11:03 pm@316: Creepy Francoeur as Santa
Why am I not surprised that a guy who hasn’t even played 100 games with the Mets is the social face of the franchise? And why am I not surprised that guy is Jeff Francoeur?
December 15th, 2009 at 11:06 pmI was looking through the comments section of the “Mets Offseason” thread on MLBTR which asked the fans what the team should do before Spring Training and I found this winner:
“they should take a page from the nl-champion phillies’ playbook. here’s how that looks:
trade johan santana for cc sabathia
trade k-rod for papelbon
release luis castillo.
sign orlando hudson for 4 years/$36mm
trade jose reyes for jimmy rollins
trade david wright for mike lowell
trade carlos beltran for curtis granderson
win pennant.
profit.
that was easy. next question.”
Gotta love it.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:25 pm@318: That has to be sarcastic.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:30 pmToo bad that we could not get Cameron–but I agree with those who don’t like the idea of Marlon Byrd….
December 15th, 2009 at 11:44 pmJeremy @ 311 – When you look at your team from year to year, of course you look at how you improve or decline at a position. Posting an .800 OPS, which is entirely reasonable for Nady, would make him an OK player to have as a part of the outfield mix. If he’d be taking over for ACHE in left, that would make for about a 100 point OPS improvement.
But like I said in my original post, I’m not thrilled about the idea and I’d prefer it if Wren has some sort of trade for first base up his sleeve.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:32 amI am glad he is not on our team, but can I admit I still like Jeff Francoeur?
Mind you, I am not saying I think he is a good baseball player, but I want him to be. I wish he would go to a team other than the Mets so I could root for him.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:35 am#322–Because I do not live in Atlanta I think that I can agree. That is, because I have not had to endure all of the Frenchy hype, I did not develop the deep dislike–to put it diplomatically–that many who come to this board had for Frenchy.
I would not be surprised to see him continue to put up decent numbers as a Met….
December 16th, 2009 at 12:45 amThere’s always a chance Frenchy will be a change of scenery guy. I think he could certainly be a Gabe Kapler type, with hustle, a little pop, a little athleticism, and a lot of energy. He certainly needed to get out of this organization, where the hype had just gotten to an unhealthy pitch. I don’t wish him ill now that he’s off our hands. But I’m still happy as hell that he’s no longer a Brave.
December 16th, 2009 at 1:37 am321,
Xavier Nady has posted an OPS of .800 or better exactly twice in his career. In 2007 with the Pirates he posted a .805 OPS in 470 PA’s. In 2008 with the Pirates/Yankees, he posted a .867 OPS (.334 BABIP, .315 career average). He’s a career .280/.335/.458/.792 hitter who will be 31 next season and missed nearly all of 2009 with a second Tommy John surgery.
Expecting a .800 OPS, or even anything above-average, is anything but reasonable. That’s best-case scenario. And the scenario gets worse. A lot worse.
December 16th, 2009 at 2:07 amIf Frenchy has a breakout season next year, I will eat my head.
So I want him to fail. For my head and stomach’s sake.
December 16th, 2009 at 2:36 am#242
King Felix says hello
December 16th, 2009 at 2:38 amIs Bay really a complete pipe dream? We offered Burnett 72mil last year, what’s the most he’s been offered so far? 65?. If we dump Lowe’s contract, could we afford to offer something in that neighborhood to Bay?
December 16th, 2009 at 2:45 am324 – good player analogy Alex. Athletic some promise of a good season every now and then. Not as good as everyone thought he’d be. Gabe Kapler = Jeff Francoeur.
No hate for Frenchy. Not his fault that he was run out there every damn day despite the fact that he stunk worse than a blue whale turd. Not his fault that he is affable, handsome and willing to do the PR work. Glad that he is not a Brave anymore.
Lets face it all the options out there for a right handed bat have lots of down side to them. You gotta roll the dice, don’t you? Buy non tendering KJ and Church the Braves have to obtain someone.
IMHO of all the FAs out there DeRosa might be the best option. Yeah he is old but he hits lefties well and he can play all over the field.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:59 amCan’t say I’m surprised by this:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/francoeur-as-n-y-242212.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm
He’s been a version of Santa Clause for major league pitchers for years now.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:09 am#325
December 16th, 2009 at 8:24 amyes, and it was his last 2 full years in the league that he posted +800 ops and the year before was a .790. pw, you are a stats guy. isnt it reasonable to assume that the longer someone is in the league, the better they get? it is reasonable to assume he can ops .800.
325 – It’s not a best-case scenario, that would be him posting a career high OPS of .875. It is a good-case scenario, but of course all projections are. As you pointed out, Peter, he has a career OPS of .792. Expecting him to be around his career average is reasonable. Bill James’s 2010 projection is for Nady is .806, by the way.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:42 amSaying he’s a career .792 doesn’t really contextualize very well – how about let’s say he’s a career 108 OPS+ guy? Has a nicer ring to it.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:51 amohhhh…. let’s see if this link gets spamblocked…
http://link.mlblists.com/r/OYOE6H/LIZMY/LNNA28/Z62Y0B/TP9HP7/XL/h?a=partnerId=ed-3086234-112916464%26source=ed-3086234-112916464
What’s that? oh, from my Mets fan friend’s e-mail she forwarded…
December 16th, 2009 at 9:17 amIf the Braves are truly committed to Freeman being a regular at 1B in 1 to 2 years, I just don’t see us making a “wow” trade to upgrade 1B. 15 to 25 hr guys with an OPS on the cusp of .800 (like Rivera and Nady) are about as good as we can hope for. With Heyward in the OF mix soon, I also don’t see a huge upgrade there (Marlon Byrd worst case- yuck). If Heyward has a good rookie season (or half season), I think we are okay with both scenarios. My biggest concern with Heyward is can he stay healthy? Some of the injuries he’s had lately (back) have a possibility of haunting him over an extended time.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:26 amByrd v. Nady:
You are comparing 2 totally different types of players. If you NEED a credible center fielder, then Nady is a 0 and Byrd is plausible. if you NEED a first baseman, then Nady is plausible and Byrd is (so far as I am aware) questionable. if you NEED a left fielder, Byrd can’t hit enough if you have anybody half decent around and Nady’s arm might fall off so you can’t count on him in left.
Byrd is a 5 million a year player for no more than 2 to 3 years for somebody that needs a centerfielder. Braves have almost no need for him.
Nady is a (right now until his arm looks o.k.) a “sign for 1 million, incentives to 5 million” player. He might be worth 8 a year for 2 years IF he was healthy.
IF NOT FOR THE INJURY going forward, Nady IS reasonable to project around 800 ops. However, Schafer is close to that and can play center and Heyward is better than that projected now.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:47 amI think Glaus is a better “right handed hitting first baseman injury recovery discounted” player to look at. His offensive numbers can carry first base. And, if he gets back his throwing arm (don’t know his prognosis there, but he is coming off shoulder surgery) and if we get a “Chipper 30 day out” in July, you might be able to move Glaus to 3rd and bring up Freeman.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:51 amIf there’s confidence in his health, I like the idea of Glaus a lot more than Marlon Byrd or Xavier Nady. Nady is a platoon guy and should only be used as such. Glaus can at least hold his own against RHPs, which is really all we need.
One reason it would have been nice to have Cameron is it would have made it possible to give McLouth the day off against some LHPs. Not a platoon or anything, just give him the day off. But that ship’s sailed, so I guess I should stop thinking about it….
December 16th, 2009 at 10:01 amin nady’s last 2 years, he had no “platoon” split and hit lefties and righties pretty equally (he actually hit righties better than lefties in 2008). nady is not a platoon player.
i will repeat my wish:
nady: 2/9 million
glaus: 1/6.5
sheffield: 1/2.5
13 million and lots of flexibility barring injury. with a lowe trade, and eating 10 million of his total salary, this would put the braves payroll at 88.25 million committed to 23 players:
sp: vazquez, hudson, jurrjens, hanson, kawakami
c: b-mac, ross
infielders: chipper, infante, escobar, prado, glaus
outfielders: nady, diaz, mclouth, sheffield
pen: wagner, saito, moylan, o’flaherty, medlen, chavez, abreu/proctor/logan/
filling out the roster: heyward and matt young
the payroll would be less than 90 million total, leaving some flexibility to add payroll in-season barring major injury.
heyward, nady, glaus, chipper, and diaz would all get plenty of rest during the season and would end the year with 450-550 at-bats each.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:19 am331,
Sure, until they’re 27-29 years old (depending on whose aging study you believe). After that, the general tendency is for them to get worse every year.
332,
December 16th, 2009 at 10:32 amNo. It’s not. Expecting someone who logged 27 PA’s last year due to a second Tommy John surgery and who will be 31 next season to do what they’ve done all their career isn’t reasonable. It’s completely unreasonable. Like I said, that’s best-case scenario. That’s if he’s fully healthy and hasn’t lost anything due to not playing in awhile/aging. What are the chances both of those happen?
Look, I agree that the injury is a factor. But if the team believes he’s healthy, I don’t think that missing a year and being 31 makes him an unreasonable bet. At 31 he may decline some from his _career peak_ but not from his career average.
If he’s not healthy that’s one thing, but writing him off because he’s 31 and missed a year is not good enough for me.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:41 amPW,
how can you possibly determine that? do you have studies to show tommy john surgery on non-pitchers decrease offensive production? i guess we will just have to agree to disagree since it is an opinion and hasnt played out yet.
peaks of mlb players have probably went up the last 15 years with more focus being spent on training and keeping the body in good physical shape. it’s not unreasonable to think that at 31, players are still peaking.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:48 amRyan, I’d recommend you look at some studies of aging. JC has done a lot of work with aging — his controversial finding has been that major leaguers tend to peak around 29, while previous estimates tended to be about 27. That’s why PW said 27-29. Tommy John surgeries don’t make someone healthier. And Xavier Nady isn’t Henry Rowengartner.
December 16th, 2009 at 11:54 amPlayers may in fact, “peak” at 29, but they don’t immediately fall off a cliff at age 30 either. Not to say that Nady is good or bad choice (I think he’d be okay, but just okay, personally), but I think the “players peak is at 29″ and “an .800 OPS is the minimum standard” get put out there without context a little too often. As noted before, Nady’s 792 OPS translates to a career 108 OPS+. You have to contextualize for park and league in order to compare rate stats effectively.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:12 pmBest case offensive solution:
LaRoche and Rivera?
December 16th, 2009 at 12:26 pmstill not buying us getting Rivera for Lowe
December 16th, 2009 at 12:36 pmWhat would it take to nab Derrek Lee from the Cubs? He’s in the last year of his deal and I don’t think they figure to compete next year with the offseason they have had. Or if they need pitching – could we toss them Lowe and Medlen?
December 16th, 2009 at 12:39 pmMy, blood-sugar-too-low silly idea is: Lowe (plus parts as needed) to the Nats for 1 year of Dunn. Defensive OF to run out there with Diaz and McLouth till baby Jesu… I mean Jason Heyward, gets promoted.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:43 pmI would very much like to get in on this Adrian Gonzalez business. Jurrjens + Schafer + whatever else not named Hanson or Heyward. Just keep Lowe (at least until next offseason), sign Nady, and kick butt.
I know it’s not happening, but I wish it would.
347—I don’t think they’re dealing Lee, especially after trading Fox away.
348—Why in the world would the Nats want Lowe?
December 16th, 2009 at 12:44 pmpeaks of mlb players have probably went up the last 15 years with
more focus being spent on training and keeping the body in good physical shape.steroidsFixed
December 16th, 2009 at 12:56 pmNew post.
December 16th, 2009 at 1:00 pm#350
December 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pmTrue dat.
alex,
so i guess every player peaks at the same time according to jc’s studies?
with steroid use, harder training, or lack thereof (80′s and previous), how can anyone determine a true peak of an individual player (derek jeter for example)?
also, i never said nady was going to get “better”. i said i think it’s realistic to think xavier nady can be a productive .800 ops player. that’s not asking him to get better. it’s just asking him not to get worse.
so, a better question….how can someone just assume that xavier nady is on the decline? because 70% of people start declining at 29? what about the others that continue to be incredibly productive?
December 16th, 2009 at 1:10 pm