Braves 9, Marlins 4
ESPN – Braves vs. Marlins – Box Score – July 23, 2008
Even when the Braves win, they lose. Chipper left the game with a reportedly minor hamstring strain, and after six shutout innings in which he pitched as well as he ever has, Hudson left the game with “tenderness”, later revised to “tightness”, in his elbow. So I’m not exactly full of glee here, plus I still think they should sell.
Gregor Blanco was the Man tonight, going 4-5, scoring three runs and driving in three. He’s not exactly a bad player, making him one of the best outfielders the Braves have. In the third, he bunted himself on with Hudson already on base, and after Escobar doubled scored on a Chipper groundout to make it 2-0.
In the fourth, Francoeur and KJ had back-to-back doubles to start the inning. Very few things are actually impossible. With two out, Blanco singled in Johnson, and Escobar’s second double of the night made it 5-0. Prado (in for Chipper) came home on a McCann single in the seventh. In the eighth, Blanco hit a two-run triple (scoring Infante, who’s back up, and Norton, who for some reason is still in the majors) then came in on an Escobar groundout.
Hudson left after six, and Boyer pitched the seventh, which I guess is okay since he hasn’t pitched in awhile. Ohman, who has been pitching, threw the eighth with a nine-run lead. Carlyle has apparently run out of pixie dust and got knocked around in the ninth, allowing a three-run homer backed by a double. Gonzalez came in, struck out the first man, then gave up a Grybo before getting the last out.
Francoeur, who sucks, was 1-5.
you mean to say…Francoeur actually made contact with a baseball tonight??
anyone in the game thread mention Ross Francis?
his line with Danville tonight
6IP 0H 2BB 16K’s…faced 20 hitters, also had a 4K inning
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:17 pmDOB says that Chipper isn’t hurt too badly and that Hudson will be reevaluated tomorrow.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 pmyep, the braves website has two articles saying the same….
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 pmat this point, I am having a scary-real vision of Hampton coming in and pitching a complete game 3 hit shutout minutes after chipper and huddy go on the 60 day DL and Tex, Boyer and Ohman are packaged off for draft pix.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 pmFrom the last thread…
Who was the last marquis guy they signed on the open market? Brian Jordan?
That would be Type A Free Agent Tom Glavine!
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:37 pmBefore Glavine, it was in fact Jordan, who was right after the Big Cat IIRC.
July 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 pmWell guys, get jacked. If chipper’s out on Friday you know what that means…The Face of The Franchise will be hitting third!
Visions of McCann suffering an Estrada/Erstad collision has been going through my head all night.
Man…the season that could have been
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:24 pmThe Braves have become road warriors. They are 5-4 in their last 9 road games. Much better than at home. Now if they can only win a one-run game on the road . . .
The Tom Emanski Onion piece was hilarious.
July 23rd, 2008 at 10:27 pmWhy doesn’t Brian McCann ever hit third when Chipper is out. It’s always been Francoeur and Kelly. And Greg Norton hit third once. But why no McCann?
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 pmNot that you actually need to have a fast batter hitting 3rd, but he’d be the slowest #3 hitter in the history of the game. As it stands now, he is only the slowest #5 hitter in the history of the game.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:34 pmHe’s not that slow. He’s faster than late-period Bonds, for one.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 pmIt was mostly a joke, but not entirely.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:40 pmIs he faster than Andy LaRoche’s brother?
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:40 pmDunno McCann’s time in the 40, but I’ve never seen anyone hit as many singles off the RF wall.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:42 pmI don’t know about you guys, but I get tired of Franceour hitting a flyout/groundout & the announcers going (Radio)ga-ga about how hard it was hit, & it was a good sign. If you hit every ball hard, but still go 0-5, it was a pretty lame night.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:07 am1-5.
HE”S BACK!!!!1!!1!1111111!11!!!!
July 24th, 2008 at 12:13 amIf anything I think speed would be less important in the #3 spot. Your 4 and 5 hitters should hit more home runs where you do not have to run. Your 6 and 7 hitters will hit less home runs than regular base hits where you actually have to run. Or am I thinking about that wrong?
July 24th, 2008 at 12:24 amCarlyle’s allowed 10 ER in his last 2 IP. Thank God we had a nine-run lead. I still find it amazing that guys like Ohman, Boyer, and Gonzo somehow find their way into these blowout games.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:24 amAnd again on the speed, McCann might realistically be the slowest player in baseball, but I think he has 3 steals this year in 3 attempts. Kid is just a smart ballplayer.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:26 amFrancoeur : McCann :: Goofus : Gallant.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:28 amGoofus and Gallant – great, now I’ll be thinking of my childhood dental experiences for the rest of the day. That was the only place I ever saw a copy of “Highlights” magazine. If only they had High Times instead…
July 24th, 2008 at 6:47 amFWIW, John Dewan published a metric today that has Yunel as the worst baserunner in all of MLB this season.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:03 amLink Robert?
I’m glad for a win, now scared about Chipper and Huddy. I was looking at Chipper’s batting average and how Pujols is getting closer to him (hey, I’ve written off this season as far as post season chances go, I’m clinging to the Chipper batting title for my hope). My thought was that Chipper may benefit from having missed a few games with injury, but Pujols and Holliday (the next two in line) have missed as many or more games than Chipper has.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:25 amRight. link
July 24th, 2008 at 7:33 amAnybody else look at Willy Taveras’s stat line? He’s only hittnig .244 with a meager .296 OBP, but with 76 hits, minus the extra base hits (14 of them) he’s got 42 stolen bases in 62 hits. While it’s not the most precise way of looking at it, he’s basically the best faux-doubles hitter in the NL (and considering his meager batting average…). Not terribly significant, but interesting (at least to me at 8:30AM when I should be getting some work done).
July 24th, 2008 at 7:36 amYunel makes stupid base running decisions that have cost us a few games this year. he is trying to force tha action which is okay in Little League and I guess Cuba, but in the major leagues guys usually don’t throw the ball away.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:59 amWow – Goofus and Gallant. My dad is a dentist in Mableton, and continues to get Highlights to this day, although the two brothers are drawn quite differently than when I was a kid. Still the same dumb lessons though . . . Gallant shares his cupcake with his cousin George, Goofus takes a second cupcake before others have had one. I can’t believe Goofus is still up to his same tricks – you’d think he’d be in jail by now.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:00 amThanks Robert, that’s an interesting piece and I’d love to read the in depth article in the Handbook some time. At first it sounded like he was getting more penalties for not going an extra base, but it could be he’s being penalized for trying to take too MANY extra bases. Also, as he’s not attempting to steal too much, and those base running decisions are quite a bit on the 3rd base coach… well shouldn’t it (if it isn’t) be weighted for a team average to remove the influence of the 3rd base coach’s decisions? I’m not sure how to weight that, maybe if your team is collectively worse than average you get points added back vs if your team is better than average you lose a couple points to account for a smarter 3rd base coach vs a smarter runner?
July 24th, 2008 at 8:21 amRosenthal on us moving Tex
http://tinyurl.com/68lhvn
July 24th, 2008 at 8:39 amWhere does ESPN get its “Baseball Tonight” analysts? Last night, Eric Young, who has the most annoying voice in America, was talking about the Rays coming back to the pack and, presumably meaning to say they were playing not to lose rather than playing to win, actually said, “they are playing to lose.” Really, the Rays are trying to lose? Does the Commissioner know about this?
Whatever faults Harold Reynolds had in his personal conduct, he was a good analysit. Why would you hire someone like Eric Young? Of course, it’s in keeping with the rest of the bozos they have.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:44 amA deal with the D’Backs centered around Conor Jackson would suit me just fine.
FWIW, DOB noted in his blog last night that a source very close to the Braves front office says there is most definitely a market for Teixeira.
I hope we don’t screw this up.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:52 amMarc, I agree with you on Young’s voice (though I’ll be charitable and say he’s tied with Katie Holmes and Joey Lauren Adams for the most annoying).
Of course, having a terrible voice isn’t necessarily a drawback if you bring something else to the table, as Myron Cope recalled his start in broadcasting: “The program director at WTAE radio said, ‘We’d like you to do commentary for us.’ I said, ‘Don’t try to kid me. I’ve heard my voice on tape.’ And he said, ‘That’s okay. Obnoxious voices are coming into style.’”
However, come to think of it, other than having a terrible voice, Cope and Young have nothing in common. It’s a good story, though.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:55 amKatie Holmes doesn’t have a good voice by any stretch of the imagination, but to compare it to Joey Lauren Adams’ voice is insane. Nobody has a more annoying voice than hers.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:57 amConor Jackson’s basic stats look pretty good to me, and Rosenthal says he’s got 3 more years of team control. Sounds like a good deal to me. Maybe not quite as much power as you’d want, but it looks like he’d be a solid, cheap player.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:10 amI dunno, Eric Allen on the football show is neck-and-neck for annoying. It takes a lot to make me change the channel when they’re talking about football, but they’ve managed …
July 24th, 2008 at 9:10 amYeah, jea, I wouldn’t want to just replace Teixeira with Jackson for next year—I would hope we could add some power in LF. Hoping for the same in RF, of course, is probably too much to ask.
You know, if we do trade Teixeira, we should essentially have $40 million to play with (at least) this offseason, without accounting for a possible Smoltz return. That could buy a potentially dominant rotation. Or a host of other things, really.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:27 amWhy all this talk about Conor Jackson? Rosenthal basically says, “No one in the Diamondbacks FO thinks this will happen.” And frankly, I agree. They don’t want Chad Tracy to be their 1B next year…. That’s stupid.
The Yankees OTOH might be a fit if they had anything the Braves wanted through trade. But they don’t have a 1B bat worth noting in the high-minors, and they obviously don’t have anyone who could take over at the ML level or they wouldn’t need to make a trade in the first place. I dunno. Maybe they give up one of their non-Hughes or Joba arms for him or something, but the Braves aren’t exactly hurting for middling young pitchers at this point.
There may be a market out there for Tex, but nothing on the order of Conor Jackson or Casey Kotchman will be coming our way. Honestly, I’ll be a bit surprised if we move him.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:29 amHow stupid would the D-Backs be to trade away Conor Jackson for 2 months of Tex? Josh Byrnes is too smart for that. Steve Phillips is too smart for that.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:36 amwell its 2 months of Tex, possibly a playoff run, and two draft picks
July 24th, 2008 at 9:40 amWell, as Rosenthal mentions, it’s 2 months of Teixeira plus two draft picks, and if the Braves pay Teix’s salary…yeah, I still wouldn’t want to do that if I were a D’Backs fan. You’re probably right about Josh Byrnes.
You give Steve Phillips far too much credit, though.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:40 amI don’t know what the Braves could actually get for Teix, but a major league ready first baseman would have to be on the list. Maybe that’s why they won’t get much for him. This, of course, is all contingent on whether the Braves are actually thinking of trading him, which they probably should do if they’re not set on signing him.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:43 amcringe dept……..i was watching on the marlins network and Hudson was in the dugout flexing his arm with a couple guys looking at him……….the announcer said ” Mike Hampton is over there and he knows something about injuries………to the whole body”
July 24th, 2008 at 9:44 am38 – Agree. And I would love Conor Jackson at 1b.
That’s a lot of $$$ to play with this offseason for free agents. Sounds good to me.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:46 amI understand why the Braves would want a 1B ready guy, but like Stu said the Braves will have about $40 mil to spend in the offseason, so why not just go after the best available package for him. We still need OF’s and we still need more SP’s also. Take whats available
July 24th, 2008 at 9:53 amStu, I dunno, Katie Holmes’s voice has always grated on me, and the whole crazy Tom Cruise thing has taken every single aspect of her down a notch in my book. Plus, I think it’s fitting that a girl who played someone named Joey should be tied with a girl who’s actually named Joey.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:01 amMaybe we should offer Yu Darvish $40 million, and then trade him for David Price.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:03 am#43 – disregard what I said there, take a look at the Free Agent 1B market. Its brutal.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html
I guess we could trade Tex away for a nice package, something better than the two picks, and then still make a run at him in the offseason
July 24th, 2008 at 10:11 amYou have to either get a first baseman in return for Teix or make a run at Adam Dunn. (Or do both, and let Dunn play LF!)
July 24th, 2008 at 10:14 amBecause getting a 1B in the trade is the only way we’ll wind up with a decent one next year. If we don’t get one, we’ll wind up fooling around and taking the equivalent of Mark Kotsay at first, even with $40 million. Trading for one is a sure way to dictate that we get one without having to make another trade or deal with the free agent market.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:16 amWhen Adam Dunn was in AA in Chattanooga I went and watched him play. He hit the longest home run I ever saw in person. I went close to 510 feet. He was in AAA the next week.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:17 amcsg, if we trade away Tex, the chance of us signing him back is practically zero. That’s just my own opinion though.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:17 amI officially proclaim Sean Casey as the Mark Kotsay of that list BTW.
Also, as far as the who hits third thing goes, why wouldn’t we move Tex up to third and slip McCann in at fourth? You then go from there, with Johnson deserving to hit fifth but Francouer actually hitting fifth, but its better than throwing either one of them ahead of Tex and McCann in the lineup.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:19 amand if we keep him, it may be a whisker better but is still practically zero
July 24th, 2008 at 10:19 amI also really don’t see why everyone wants Dunn. We’ve all been talking about how our hitters are too aggressive and that we’re stuck in the era of the three-run homer when that era isn’t really happening anymore. And now we’re talking about getting a guy who strikes out 200 times a year and who epitomizes the three-run homer era, and who couldn’t catch a ball of it was tossed softly toward him on top of that? No thanks.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:23 amTrade Texeira for whatever you can get for him now. A AA or AAA prospect is a better bet to help the team in the next couple of years when they still will have a chance to compete than a draft pick. Obviously a highly rated first base or outfield prospect would be the ideal return.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:27 amDunn is not too aggressive. He walks a ton. He usually strikes out on pitches in the strike zone.
And 3-run homers are OK in any era.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:27 amI would like to point out that on Braves Live last night, Gregor Blanco gave Terry Pendleton credit for helping him make some adjustments prior to his hot streak.
Since I have been calling for TP’s head, I thought I might acknowledge some evidence of good work.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:35 amwhen was the last time someone hit a 3R HR for us?
July 24th, 2008 at 10:39 amI bet TP payed him off to say that…..
July 24th, 2008 at 10:39 amI agree with Stu (I seem to do that a lot, not sure what that means)… Dunn gets on base a ton. I wouldn’t mind seeing the Braves make a run at him, but I’m guessing (just a guess) he’s not the type of player they will go after.
Teix for Connor Jackson? I’d do that… doubt Arizona would.
Chipper, Dunn, McCann, and Jackson (in some order) in the middle of the order sounds pretty good to me.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:42 amSurprised Mac hasn’t yet mentioned this: http://tinyurl.com/5j75rb
July 24th, 2008 at 10:47 amAAR, I just noticed the hat tip you gave me yesterday, which is almost certainly the first of those I’ve ever received. On the internet, anyway. I have arrived.
Let me just encourage you not to forget that this is BravesNation.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:58 ama piece from mlb.com:
” The Braves haven’t completely shut the door on dealing certain players. They will listen to offers for Jeff Francoeur and Will Ohman and some insiders expect Teixeira to become available if the Braves have a bad week.”
we are listening to offers for francoeur? really? who in the hell could we get?
July 24th, 2008 at 11:01 amWow, I can’t see why they’d trade Francoeur. I dunno if that makes any sense. They must just wanna get rid of him…
July 24th, 2008 at 11:08 amthey wouldn’t get squat for him; I bet it’s a leak intended to serve as a shot across Jeffy’s bow rather than sending him back to Miss where he belongs
July 24th, 2008 at 11:09 amSomebody would offer something for him since he’s still young.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:13 amI will be shocked if they trade Francoeur.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:36 amon the Yunel as bad base-runner-is he really, really slow? I was amazed last night that he got doubled up on his slow roller to third base. It almost looked like a swinging bunt, and they turned the DP with plenty of time to spare-beat Yunel at 1B by a few steps. I thought maybe he had slipped in the batter’s box.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:39 amAnd if we don’t get any takers, I’d send him through waivers after the deadline. And if that doesn’t work, I’d somehow forget to list him on my 40-man roster over the offseason. And if that doesn’t work, hell…just outright release him. (Although one of these would almost assuredly work, likely the waiver wire.) In any case, I’m done with him. I want that useless piece of crap off of my team. I am not exaggerating or joking. I would take almost any offer. I might even take cash considerations. Am I overreacting? Maybe a little. But I don’t think that there is any way he ever becomes better than a league average RF, and there’s a pretty good chance he never gets that good. We can sign any league average RF that we want, it’s just not worth the headache anymore. He should have been down in the minors for the rest of the year and we could have kicked this can down the road another year. Now that’s ruined, and it kind of forces our hand.
Also, regarding 60, does anyone else think it might be time to move on?
July 24th, 2008 at 11:39 amNick must be a UT fan.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am@53 Huh? Dunn is the opposite of aggressive: he leads the majors in walks. Francoeur, who sees like two or three pitches per at bat – popups on the former and strikeouts on the latter – is ‘aggressive.’ Dunn is patient, sometimes too patient, which explains some of those called third strikes (the kind of thing that drives old baseball men crazy). In fact, when considering the fact that Chipper is injured every other weekend, Dunn, on this roster, would arguably be the most valuable hitter. I’d take that 945 OPS, thanks.
The Braves aren’t trading Francoeur, though if they did I’d probably throw a party.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:47 amWhy hold out for a first baseman when the Braves will get nothing anyway if Tex walks.? Take what you can get; they have little leverage and 2 months of Tex isn’t worth much, especially with Boras as his agent.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:56 amNick is a UT fan, and isn’t a big fan of Fulmer FWIW. I really don’t wanna get into a huge argument about this or anything, but look: half the coaches in the league were reporting them as cheating, including their current coach, as I recall. The fact is that they were cheating (quite severely and wantonly, I might add), they got caught and they got punished. Fulmer only skipped out on Media Day that one time (and it was a chicken shit move BTW), so he’s been in Alabama numerous times since all that happened, including several Media Days. Why on Earth would you bring it back up now (five years later? I don’t even remember how long ago it was)? Why on Earth would a man who was obviously brazenly cheating sue the NCAA for doing its job in regards to him (talking about Wendell Smith now)? And why on Earth would any reputable lawyer think this lawsuit is a good idea? Also, if I were the University of Alabama, I would distance myself from this lawsuit as much as I could…even to the point of denouncing it. Because if I were the University of Alabama, pissing off the NCAA just as I was starting to get back in good graces would be the opposite of what I would want to do.
Now, hopefully that was diplomatic enough to avoid a meltdown. I kind of wish I’d just dropped it, but I’ve spent all this time typing that stuff up now.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:06 pmDunn would be a good sign in the off season. I wouldn’t trade anything of value for him right now. He alone wouldn’t make this team competitive.
Hey we found a team to take Kyle Davies off our hands when he was statistically among the worst starting pitchers of all time. I’m sure some team would look at those 29 homeruns Jeffy hit 2 years ago and think he is worth giving up a AA or A prospect for. I think the Nats still have a few spots in their lineup not filled by ex-Braves for instance….
July 24th, 2008 at 12:10 pm“We traded Francoeur.”
“Great trade! Who’d we get?”
July 24th, 2008 at 12:15 pmMaybe the Royals and Dayton Moore would take him. They seem to like collecting our failed prospects.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:16 pmNo way the Braves trade Francoeur. They waited forever just to take him out of the lineup…and that was for only three days while he was in Mississippi.
No, the Braves will let this Francoeur thing fester for a good while longer before pulling the plug. Francoeur will play out this season, make the Atlanta Braves’ team next year, and around I say June 2009 they’ll (Frank Wren the Braves’ front office) finally end it.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:16 pmThe only reason I might not take Dunn would be his defense. And frankly, I think there are much worse defensive LFs, for example, Jason Bay.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:17 pmTo take things off in a different tangent… I’m pissed at the Padres for Maddux’s losing streak. He’s not been lights out, but since his last win he’s had about 8 games he could reasonably expect to win at least half of (games where he goes 5+ innings and gives up only 2-3 runs or less). I think he might have even MORE of a case for taking a bat to his teammates for lack of run support than the Braves starters have had… though there certainly is a higher expectation that the Braves offense should get some runs than there is/was for the Padres.
In a related (in that he’s also an older pitcher) note… how the heck is Jamie Moyer doing as well as he is? Sub 4.00 ERA and even though he wins a fair bit, he almost always looks lost out there (at least the games I’ve seen him pitch).
July 24th, 2008 at 12:22 pmWHO cares about left field defense if you’re getting 30+ homeruns and OBP around .400?
July 24th, 2008 at 12:22 pmI’d be concerned about the defense, but not nearly enough to not want to add him to the lineup.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:30 pmjust saw this flying through DOB’s blog
By David O’Brien
July 23, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
Huddy hopes to make his next start, thinks he’ll be able to, said he’d have stayed in if closer game and no off day tomorrow.
Chipper hopes to miss only a couple days, but said it’s sore and he doesn’t know. Not certain about DL, but hopeful he can stay off it.
No word on Hampton, but he told me they haven’t told him if he’ll pitch Saturday or not.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:43 pmnot
July 24th, 2008 at 12:47 pm“The Braves will listen to offers for Jeff Francoeur and Will Ohman, and maybe Mark Teixeira if the Braves struggle in the next week. The Royals are said to be interested in Francoeur. Mike Gonzalez is unavailable.”
http://tinyurl.com/5h52xd
July 24th, 2008 at 12:47 pmThe Braves will listen to offers for Jeff Francoeur and Will Ohman, and maybe Mark Teixeira if the Braves struggle in the next week. The Royals are said to be interested in Francoeur. Mike Gonzalez is unavailable.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:54 pmThe Braves have scouted Jason Bay and Xavier Nady, in case they decide to become buyers.
OK, what would it take, in addition to Jeff Francoeur, to get Zack Greinke? Keep in mind that, to the Royals, Francoeur is apparently worth more than zero.
July 24th, 2008 at 12:56 pmSounds like a guess to me. Braves aren’t happy with Francoeur + Dayton Moore liking Braves prospects = trade rumor.
If the Braves are willing to trade him, then why did they allow the Mississippi fiasco to happen?
July 24th, 2008 at 1:06 pmNothing would please me more than to see Jeff rot away with the Royals.
JC, maybe the reason they brought him back so soon was that they hoped he would go on a run so they could dump him.
Unlikely.. But yeah.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:08 pmBut then why did they send him down at all? I would think leaving him to kick butt in Double-A would be a better way to boost his trade value.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:13 pmWell, maybe that wasn’t the original plan, and his hissy fit changed things… I dunno, I guess it doesn’t make sense.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:15 pmJust a thought. What would happen to Bill Shanks if the Braves gave up Francoeur for Mark Teahen?
July 24th, 2008 at 1:19 pmMy sense is that the organization was not at all happy about Francoeur’s reaction to the Mississippi fiasco. That the willingness (desire?) to deal him arose from that very incident. Otherwise, I would agree that it makes little sense.
As for whether the Royals’ interest is a guess, you may well be right. I do know that DOB has floated the notion that the Braves are not against trading Francoeur, though, so I feel confident that there’s something there, whether it’s with the Royals or not.
(Incidentally, who, besides Dayton Moore, would possibly have interest in him at this point?)
July 24th, 2008 at 1:21 pmJust a thought. What would happen to Bill Shanks if the Braves gave up Francoeur for Mark Teahen?
I dare not dream.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:28 pmI’m with Stu here. I assume that Frenchy rankled the brass.
However, I have no clue as to whether or not they’d really deal him. Sounds like a cliche, but it might be best for both parties at this point.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:29 pmMaybe we could trade Shanks for Rany Jazayerli.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:30 pmNow, I thought his comments would have upset the front office. But, they really went out of their way to kiss his butt and bring him back to the big leagues. And Jeffy went out of his way to express his anger.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:33 pmMy guess is that it’s another gambit by the organization. Sending him down to the minors didn’t put the fear of God in him? Well, okay, we’ll start telling people we’ll consider trading him. One of these days he’ll have to get it into his head that he doesn’t walk on water.
I was just walking back from lunch on Connecticut Avenue here in DC, and I saw a guy wearing a grey “Rammer Jammer” shirt on. So I shouted “Go Dawgs!” as loud as I could. The guy made a really angry face at me, waved his arm menacingly, and walked away.
And you’re welcome, Stu. The Bravosphere’s a better place for your being in it.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:47 pmMet fan deli counter guy: We’re in first place now & your team sucks.
Me: For the moment…I’ll take a large regular coffee & a bran muffin.
MFDCG: This is 3 years in a row now.
Me: And how did those last 2 seasons end up for you?
MFDCG: That’ll be $3.50.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:49 pmMaybe we could trade Shanks for Rany Jazayerli.
Would that make Rob Neyer predict the Braves winning the division?
July 24th, 2008 at 1:49 pmWell a PO’ed AND crappy Francouer would be the only way to drive his value down even further, I suppose
July 24th, 2008 at 1:54 pmNick,
Youre right it is time to let this thing die. But this crazy Alabama fan just can’t let go.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:55 pmGot my hair cut today and may barber says he heard
KC gets: Francoeur, Chuck James, and Ronny Paulino, John Van Benschoten
July 24th, 2008 at 2:05 pmPitt gets: Luke Hochevar and Brandon Jones
Atl gets: Jason Bay Joel Peralta and Miguel Olivo
I’d be wary of trading Francoeur this season. I’d at least give him the offseason to have his operation and work on things and see how he is then.
Whenever I think about it I always have in my mind the Dbacks trading Quentin away after a bad season when he was hurt.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pmanybody know if Delta flies from KC to Copenhagen?
Smitty–hard to see KC wanting to take on such a bunch of problems/underachievers as James, Francoeur, and Van Ben.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:43 pmI thought it was even harder to see the Pirates giving up Jason Bay+ for Hochevar and B. Jones.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:50 pmHochevar is the “elite” prospect they want.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:51 pmThe Braves won’t trade Francouer. Why? Who would want him? The Royals are retarded but not THAT retarded.
Last thread KJ hate/dislike whatever. I’m disappointed. I thought he would play better but outside of a stretch in May that is proping up his stats he just isn’t having a good season. Don’t hate the kid and I want him to succeed because I think he can be a good player but he sure isn’t doing it this year.
BP says Braves should be buyers. Shoot I would almost hate it if they got a bat because it would prolong the agony but if they do for crying out loud get Bay and not Nady. Nady is having one of those everything that I hit is falling great seasons.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:51 pmFrank,
That is why they are the Royals.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pmThe idea that Francoeur, who has the plate discipline of a 9th grader, could ever approach anything Quentin has done this season, makes my head spin. At some point you’ve got to cut the cord. He’s clearly not going to be successful with this management, whether it’s the result of his own stubbornness and/or inability or that of his coaches. It’s addition by subtraction now. If they can get something, anything for him, sweet.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:57 pmre: 103
While I don’t think Francoeur is going anywhere this year, I don’t think Carlos Quentin is a good comparison. He’s clearly on another level than Frenchy and always has been despite the early Frenchy hype.
Quentin put up .940 OPS in the minors in over 1000 atbats at the AA and AAA levels, and despite his struggles at the MLB level in 2007, had already shown signs of putting up the same kinds of numbers in the majors in 2006. The track record and signs were all there that Quentin could be the kind of player he’s been this year.
Frenchy on the other hand had only had 411 atbats at the AA level and hit .260/.300/.433 during that time. Since then he’s piled up 1900+ major league at-bats and put up a .270/.312/.445. None of those numbers even come close to the kinds of numbers Quentin is putting up, has put up at every level, and will presumably continue to put up if you trust his record. Francoeur’s ceiling even during the “good times” was well below Quentin if you look at his numbers. But his problem is that he’s having easily he’s worst season yet – offensively, defensively, PR-wise.
I just don’t like the comparison…if it was possible to get value for Francoeur at this point, I would do it in a heartbeat. But I’m skeptical to say the least that that’s a possibility right now. Trading him now would be the definition of selling low.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:00 pmHochevar is the “elite” prospect they want.
Hochevar’s hardly elite. His stock has dropped quite a bit since his last year at UT, Smitty.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:04 pmThere’s still value to Francoeur. If someone wants to give real value to get him, then I would listen. If not, he’s going down with the ship.
Alex Gordon?
July 24th, 2008 at 3:04 pmZack Greinke?
BP is interesting. They suggest Bay and Duchscherer would be good fits for the Braves. Bay is attractive because he could be controlled for next season too. Brandon Jones and someone else – possibly Hanson, though this board would probably explode at the thought – would do it. Together, those two players could add five wins.
But I still say sell.
Alex Gordon??? The Royals would have to be disbanded as an organization, Moore taken out back and shot, and then the league would have to veto the trade. Maybe not in that order, but still.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:06 pmI really don’t see Franceour’s problems this year as being mainly stubbornness. I think part of his problem is that he focused on adding bulk in his off-season workout program and for whatever reason, it helped decrease bat speed. The other main ingredient I see in his problems is mental. I think he tries to change his approach at times, but after an at-bat or two, or a few pitches, he goes back to his old habits. IMO, it is more of a schizophrenic approach than having no plate discipline at all – unfortunately the results are probably worse.
I think Franceour has a decent chance of getting over his mental issues at the plate. My biggest concern is his decrease in bat speed – it wasn’t very fast to begin with – hence the strikeout problems.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:09 pmDouglass at #110, I completely second that — I had the exact same thought with the Carlos Quentin comparison. As soon as it was made, a quick look at his stats on baseballcube showed the kid was posting OBP of 0.420+ at AAA. There’s no way that Frenchy ever sniffs that range in a million years.
On the other hand, I don’t know how fired up about Teahen I would be — he’s 27 and still hasn’t shown a lot of the pop that he was touted as having when he came to KC from Oakland.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pmJust sayin’ I am not willing to trade Frenchy for what we should get in return.
The best match might be someone else’s former top prospect who is currently struggling – one of those change of scenery deals.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pmRegarding Chipper – From what it looked like to me, I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t miss at least a week. If he comes back too early, he runs a huge risk of re-injuring the hammy.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pmAlso, in the minors Quentin had a 1.11 k/bb ratio, and has a 1.28 k/bb ratio so far this year. (This is the first year he’s come close to his minor league rate at the mlb level.)
Compare that to Frenchy’s rates: 2.97 k/bb in the minors and 3.97 k/bb so far in his 4 major league seasons…you get the point.
I realize everyone knows Quentin is better than Frenchy, but if someone’s gonna throw the comparison out there, I just felt the need to illustrate how wide the gap is.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:14 pmYou sure on that td? As my old college roommate used to say listening to someone talking after a hard night of drinking, “Sounds like he ate a big bowl of dumbass.”
I think maybe Frenchy’s HS sweetheart wife has been slipping some dumbass into his bowl of wheaties every morning……although your technical analysis has some merit to it.
I think I’m at the point where I just wish Frenchy would go away. Maybe that’s what the front office is thinking too?
July 24th, 2008 at 3:17 pmHey, here’s a great idea. Lets start Hampton (who hasnt thrown 1 pitch in MLB since 2005) on saturday against the Phils. I think Wren is wanting to sell and doing everything possible to do so. How else can you explain this move, keeping Frenchy happy, and giving Corky Miller a job? Sell sell sell
July 24th, 2008 at 3:17 pmFrom Jayson Stark:
If the Braves have a bad weekend and decide to trade Mark Teixeira, a deal could come together quickly. Stark says the Braves have already touched base with the Rays, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels and Yankees. Where Tex fits on the Rays, I’m not sure. Additionally, interest in Will Ohman is said to be “massive
July 24th, 2008 at 3:23 pmdonate, donate, donate
July 24th, 2008 at 3:24 pm#121 – here’s his whole article
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3503003&type=story
July 24th, 2008 at 3:24 pmSuch foresight of Wren to give Corky Miller a job this year so we could sell at the deadline.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:28 pmAlso, I think Chipper will not go on the DL, because he does not want to. He probably should, like just before the All Star break.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:30 pmSome of you are missing the fact that trading Francoeur opens a spot in right field that could be filled with a replacement level or better player who would instantly improve the offense. It doesn’t even matter what the Braves got back in the trade. What matters is not continuing to destroy the offense by hitting the incredible, inevitable out machine 6th. This is called addition by subtraction. He either has to be traded or sent down to the minors until he becomes a good player (the Braves did that with Scott Thorman so why not Francoeur?).
July 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pmtd @114 Frenchy’s mental problem is caused by a huge empty space in his cranium.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:49 pmParish (completely OT),
Have you noticed that VU’s football recruiting class is shockingly solid so far? I mean, it’s still probably the worst class in the SEC to this point, but we have several 3-stars (at positions like tailback and defensive tackle, even!) and are said to have good shots at several other highly rated prospects.
I didn’t see this coming, actually. I figured any momentum the coaching staff had was lost with last season’s disappointment and the apparent leveling off of the program. (Note that I said “apparent”—my personal belief is that we’re still continuing to get better, even though the won-loss record doesn’t necessarily show it yet.)
Anyway, thought I’d mention what’s come as quite a pleasant surprise.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:50 pmIn the end, Frenchy’s still a young guy with a relatively high ceiling. The Braves can get something for him. Now, I’ve watched him (in horror) for three years and am firmly convinced that he will never be good. In fact, he may never even be league average. Those of you who think that his value is as low as it can be are wrong: if he is mediocre-to-bad for another year or so–in years during which he should be entering his prime–then he will command almost nothing. Right now he’s young enough for talent still to matter. In a couple of years that talent will no longer interest anyone in baseball, because he will be an unequivocal failure.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:02 pmCarlos Quentin had a much more established track record that Frenchy. He also did not bitch and moan when they shipped him to the minors last year either, he went down and got his swing back. I’m a guy that went to Carlos Quentin bobblehead doll night last year, so admittedly, I’m in the tank for him.
Anyway, as I stated in the thread the other day, we need to stop with the Conor Jackson talk. He plays left field since Byrnes got hurt. They would have no place to play Tracy if they traded CoJack. They wouldn’t have just traded for Tony Clark if they were going to shift Tracy to the bench and trade CoJack, which would make no damn sense. It ain’t happenin. Also Max Scherzer ain’t happenin either. I would bet anything I own on those two guys not coming back to the Braves in a Tex trade.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:13 pmFrenchy on the other hand had only had 411 atbats at the AA level and hit .260/.300/.433 during that time.
Yeah, but he earned every damn point dammit! Don’t you see that?
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/07/05/francoeur_0706.html
July 24th, 2008 at 4:26 pmNew poll. This is a choose-all-that-apply poll.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:37 pmI think Bobby Johnson does a helluva job and as a Kentucky fan I don’t like it. We need somebody in the Conference that is an automatic win.
Btw, serving Fulmer at Media Days? Priceless.
Let’s see how the Phat Phil sings.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pmJust in case anyone wanted to get away from discussing Frenchy and the finer aspects of guys from the D-backs we won’t be getting, here’s THT’s breakdown on Brett Devall, our supplementary pick (#40):
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/breaking-down-the-draft-picks-36-44/
July 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pmWell, it’s SUPPOSED TO BE a choose-all poll. I changed it.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pmI love the SEC soap opera stuff.
Fulmer served!
Urban whines!
It’s certainly a new day when Florida moans about something that Georgia did to them—not since The Dooley Era.
Richt will never call a trick play to run the score past 50 (and cluck about it like Spurrier did), so I gotta giggle about Urban’s new motivational ploy.
Bring it.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:44 pm“Those who said Mike Hampton will never pitch in the Majors again could be proven wrong Saturday, as Bobby Cox might start him in Philadelphia.”
After which time, will the critics have been silenced?
July 24th, 2008 at 4:49 pmI love that so much of Peanut’s Hampton commentary is aimed directly at Mac.
And I’ve mentioned this before, but I also love imagining how crushed Peanut was that day when Mac first brought up the eleventy billion times which he’s used the critics-silencing motif.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:50 pmFirst, don’t count your chickens, Mark.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:53 pmSecond, even if he pitches this weekend, he will still continue his streak of not pitching in a game that matters.
Stu – can’t say that I follow Vandy football recruiting with any expectations. It’s nice to hear we may continue this upward trend on the grid iron.
Can’t say I ever remember Vandy being an automatic win for Kentucky.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:12 pmNo, in fact during the Curry years, Kentucky was an automatic win for Vandy (5 straight!!)
Just saying we need one.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:28 pmI heart technology. First post from a cellphone.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:41 pmFrenchie has a relatively high ceiling? relative to what? Zips shows his career high in HR’s from here on out to be maybe 18? Combined with his very low OBP, he has league average as his high, and well below replacement level (where he is this year) as his low. We were blinded by that call-up year. As someone above indicated, his minor league numbers indicated a bust of a player was coming our way, once MLB pitchers realized his strike-zone judgment.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:21 pmYou know, he probably could.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:54 pm#144 – if thats true, thats flat out ridiculous!
July 24th, 2008 at 7:00 pmWell, it’s The Onion, so it’s probably not true.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:00 pmMac, please play this for Hampton on Saturday if he pitches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSWTgLvxPYc
someone in DOB’s blog mentioned it and its perfect
July 24th, 2008 at 7:08 pmIt appears I must now regrettably, rejoin the world of working stiffs. Now I know how Frenchy felt when he got sent to AA.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:16 pmCongrats, Spike.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:43 pmIn one day, these Met fans around here have already become insufferable. Here’s to seeing them lose their last game this year, no matter when it comes.
Spike,
Cue the opening strains of The Bangles’ “Manic Monday.”
My stock answer to why I don’t mind working: I hate daytime TV.
Good luck. Working ain’t always so bad.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:45 pmbfan – calm down. If you actually read what I wrote, instead of giving a knee jerk reaction to one phrase taken out of context, you’d have read that I said he’s terrible and I believe he will only get worse–or at best, stay the same. But in the ‘toolsy’ sense he has ‘upside,’ which provides the only hope the Braves have of getting any return on him, if that’s what they are so inclined to do. As for minor league numbers, they can point to many things. From the point of view of 2004, Francoeur could have developed into a good bad ball hitter with good teaching. It never happened, but tha doesn’t change the fact that his comps coming up did not necessarily foretell ‘bust.’ And even up until this season BP (et al.) was treating his development seriously. That probably won’t be the case next year, and it certainly won’t the one after that, which was my main point: that the Braves, if they are one day to get anything at all, need to get it sooner rather than later. That’s the whole thing. His floor will only get lower as he gets older, which is hard to believe but likely all the same.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:04 pmAh, I was getting bored anyway. 90 days of sloth was all I could handle. Straight sales gig, back in Europe for the fall. Could be much worse. Wish I was still playing guitar for a living.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:06 pmSpike, do you have a login?
July 24th, 2008 at 9:48 pmwhat do you mean?
July 24th, 2008 at 10:15 pmTell me where to get one, and I’ll sign up
July 24th, 2008 at 10:16 pmSpike,
Where in Europe?
Do you go to Holland? Spain?
July 24th, 2008 at 10:26 pmI will be at the IBC convention in Amsterdam in September, assuming I don’t screw up my finalization call tomorrow, and I expect to be spending a lot of time in France and Spain (god how I love Spain). Some time in Germany and Norway, and perhaps the old eastern bloc countries if I get some opportunities there.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:37 pmSpike, there should be a “Login” link under “Meta” at the bottom of the right sidebar.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:14 pmSpike,
I’ll miss you by about 6 weeks in Amsterdam. I do an annual convention there, too.
Big fan of Spain, especially that one crazy Balaeric Island.
July 24th, 2008 at 11:16 pmif anyone is in the market for an hdtv, my favorite website is running a special on a 32 inch hd lcd for 400 bucks. the shipping is only an extra 5 bucks as well. i actually have this tv and it has been fantastic. for a less expensive lcd, it has been just as good as others i’ve seen. the picture is phenomenal and the sound is ok. if you’re big into sound, you might want to invest in a surround sound system anyway.
the only downfall of the tv is there is only 1 hdmi output, which means you can either:
a) buy a switcher
b) switch the cable every time you want to watch a dvd
c) just do with only one for the tv
check it out. if you’re not in the market for a tv, check the site out anyway. the shirts are great and the wine discounts are good as well.
http://www.woot.com
July 25th, 2008 at 12:29 amI was just browsing Yo La Tengo’s website earlier looking for a link to an interview I read a few months ago, and I happened across an obscure article that Ira Kaplan, lead singer/guitarist and well-known baseball (Mets) fan, wrote in 2002 about odd name coincidences in baseball…and who would be featured in it, but our own Greg Norton:
Full Article
Norton excerpt, his answers are predictably bland:
Questions for Greg Norton, infielder for the Colorado Rockies:
1. Have you ever heard of Greg Norton, former bassist with the punk-rock group Hüsker Dü? If so, have you ever heard any of their music? Can you be specific, any impressions, etc.?No.
2. How about the board game “Hüsker Dü.” Ever played that? No.
The Beatles board game “Flip Your Wig”-Hüsker Dü named an album after that. Ever played that? No.
3. Greg Norton of Hüsker Dü was easily identifiable by his moustache. What would you consider to be helpful for those of us who have trouble telling the two Greg Nortons apart? My nose is my most memorable facial characteristic.
4. Since Husker Du broke up, Greg Norton has worked as a chef. What one dish would you say you most like to prepare? I love to make taco salad.
5. Please name a song and musical act that you like, past and present. Metallica.
Questions for Greg Norton, former bassist for Hüsker Dü:
1. Have you ever heard of the baseball player Greg Norton? Yes, he used to pitch for the Cubs.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:30 am2. Did you play much Little League baseball when you were young? What was the name of your team? I can’t remember if we were the Tigers of the White Sox. I played center field. The one highlight I remember: I jumped up and made a spectacular one-handed catch. They were going to give me the game ball till the next inning another kid hit a ball up the middle and made it all the way around the bases, and they gave it to him. But he was just lucky.
3. Do you have a favorite team? Longtime Twins fan. Let’s contract the Brewers.
I’m a big fan of the mighty Woot as well, ryan c. Haven’t managed to get a bag of crap yet, though.
Nice find Douglass.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:39 amLet’s all be optimists for a minute and ASSUME Hampton actually pitches tomorrow… how many pitches before he goes down? I’m going to go with a nice round 15 so he’ll have made a cool million per pitch this year (not by choice mind you, just by sheer dumb bad luck).
July 25th, 2008 at 6:14 amFor the record Woot is a pure evil temptress that taunts me with great prices on stuff I can’t afford to spend even the discounted amount on. Which is my way of saying I love Woot (spoke with my Mom yesterday and she was looking at the refurb 5.5G iPod on there… hoping she was looking at it to give to me
).
July 25th, 2008 at 7:16 am#144, I love these little stories about Maddux, true or not. He is my favourite player and without a doubt the greatest pitcher of my lifetime (which spans 38 years now).
I also found this headline from The Onion quite amusing: “Mariners Improve To Eight Games Over .300“
July 25th, 2008 at 7:50 am“Dumping Francoeur right now is the dumbest thing I’ve heard. He is struggling this year (did you see Vanden Hurk throw nothing but upstairs fastballs on him and blow him away?), but his struggles are restricted to only this year. He’s been sacrificing power for on-base percentage (cf. HR rates for walk rates), but his defense is absolutely top notch. He saves the Braves dozens of runs by guys not testing his cannon arm.”
This must have been written either by Francoeur’s (who sucks)parents or his agent although the commenter signed himself as “Braves81.” Either that, or this person is truly insane (or has been listening to John Kruk too much).
I can’t root against the Braves but I am conflicted this weekend because (1) I don’t want to help the Mets; and (2) if they have a good series, the Braves will remain in limbo.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:36 am“He’s been sacrificing power for on-base percentage (cf. HR rates for walk rates), but his defense is absolutely top notch. He saves the Braves dozens of runs by guys not testing his cannon arm.”
no, he’s actually been sacrificing power, avg, and OBP because he cant make contact and constantly swings at pitches above his head and in the other batters box. He cant even hit mistake pitches anymore. As for his defense, it pretty much sucks now also. The guy has a very strong arm, but he’s far less accurate this year. He’s got about the worst range of any RF (outside of Vlad and Hermida) in baseball and he’s even having trouble with booting the grounders hit to him. I dont think he’s this bad, but he’s by far the worst everyday RF in baseball this year. Maybe it has something to do with his ankle injury, but I doubt it…
btw, Estrada was designated yesterday. He’s been bad this year, but he’s still a whole lot better than the Hamster
July 25th, 2008 at 8:47 amSome interesting DOB tidbits posted last night.
On Francoeur:
On Teixeira:
July 25th, 2008 at 8:49 amI’m all for keeping a cordial atmosphere, but it can’t be healthy for a GM to be that close to a player. No wonder Francoeur took his demotion personally.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:12 amWhile I would be surprised, I’d also be pretty pleased to see Tex go to one of those three teams DOB mentioned. It would likely mean us getting back one of Conor Jackson, James Loney, or Casey Kotchman, all three of which are at least not Greg Norton and will be under team control for about another 3 years. That would leave us cash to burn on a starter and a real LF this off-season.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:33 amestrada was designated for assignment by the nats. here’s our chance to get rid of corky. pull the trigger wren.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:37 amhttp://tinyurl.com/5e62sj
Estrada wouldn’t be much of an improvement over Porky. Just DFA Porky and call up Sammons.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:56 amEstrada’s comments, from the original article, made it seem like he’s not really interested in playing for anyone, based on his various injuries, at least for the rest of this season.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:59 amYu Darvish threw a nice, cool 165 pitches yesterday. His shoulder/elbow should be all but shot, by the time he’s 25
July 25th, 2008 at 10:06 amAdam Dunn just gets no love. Will Carroll said this yesterday:
Mark Teixeira
Age: 28
Career OPS+: 131
Adam Dunn
Age: 28
Career OPS+: 131
Yes, Teixeira has more defensive value (although not a whole lot, IMO) and may age more gracefully than Dunn, but I don’t understand why Dunn is being ignored by most teams and, seemingly, analysts. He’s good!
This would give me hope that Dunn, as an undervalued player, would be someone the Braves could get in on—that is, be able/willing to afford—if I had any confidence that our front office is in the apparent minority that understands his value.
We’ll probably sign Casey Blake or something.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:08 amStu, Id take either one of them, preferably both
this is disappointing, but not surprising…per mlb rumors Bobby Cox is losing his mind
“Braves decision-makers remain split on whether to buy or sell, with manager Bobby Cox leading the buy side. “
July 25th, 2008 at 10:22 amMaybe they accidentally edited out the words, “suicide pills,” which were originally located just before the comma.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:25 amAfter actually reading what Heyman said, I no longer have much confidence in his reports. Two assertions stand out:
(1) This is probably Bobby’s last season as manager; and
(2) There is no reason for the Braves to hang onto Mike Gonzalez.
Someone who doesn’t realize that both of those guys’ contracts run through 2009 probably isn’t the most reliable source for Braves information.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:34 amAny word on Chipper?
July 25th, 2008 at 10:40 am(2) There is no reason for the Braves to hang onto Mike Gonzalez.
There is every reason in the world to hold onto Gonzalez with Soriano’s health a question.
Anyway, from Mark Bowman a two days ago:
“As the Braves continue to prove they aren’t legitimate postseason contenders, general manager Frank Wren is moving closer to trading Mark Teixeira, Will Ohman and Mark Kotsay. But despite some recent speculation, he is not shopping Mike Gonzalez and has no intention to do so.
Baseball Prospectus’ Will Carroll speculated Tuesday night that the Rangers would be willing to deal Frank Catalanotto, Marlon Byrd or Milton Bradley to the Braves in exchange Gonzalez.
Reacting to that rumor on Wednesday morning, one Braves official said, “Gonzalez will not be traded before the deadline or during this off-season unless Texas offers us Josh Hamilton.”
With the high salaries owed to Teixeira, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine and Mike Hampton coming off the books at the end of this year, the Braves will feel comfortable going into next year paying approximately $10 million to have both Gonzalez and Rafael Soriano in their bullpen.”
http://tinyurl.com/624m62
July 25th, 2008 at 10:49 amStu, I’m with you in hoping Dunn’s perceived lack of value will help the Braves. We can only hope the Braves realize what Dunn can bring to the team. I agree that it’s really odd that more teams aren’t trying to trade for him.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:56 amStu–I thought Heyman said penultimate not last season for Cox. Did I misread?
I agree that he was wrong about Gonzo.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:59 amIf we could get Dunn and get RID of Frenchy, I’d be the happiest girl in the world.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:00 amNo, you’re right, Frank. I just need to re-learn the definition of “penultimate”.
(Does Bobby not realize that trading these guys might make us better in his final season?)
July 25th, 2008 at 11:03 amEstrada would not be welcomed back by the Braves. He didn’t exactly leave on the best terms.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:40 amNobody should be surprised about Bobby wanting to buy. He’s always been the ultimate optimist. I bet he thinks Jeffy is having a great year but has just been gosh darn unlucky and hitting the ball hard but not finding any holes too.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:47 amThat’s interesting, Jake. I hadn’t heard that before. Can you give any details?
July 25th, 2008 at 11:53 amI think Bobby is under the mindset that being 6 or so games out really isn’t that far back. Especially since no one has run away from the pack. If we were over .500 and had won 10 of 15 I might be there with him. After we get swept this weekend we will be dead in the water.
If for some reason we sweep and the Mets fall apart, I say we make a run at it.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:59 am6 games back is difficult enough. But 6 games back and chasing 3 teams (even if they aren’t exactly powerhouses)… that’s adding a number of degrees of difficulty. 6 games back, behind 3 teams, and we can’t even play .500 ball or put together more than 3 wins in a row? I appreciate optimism, but we can’t discount reality here, Bobby.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:05 pmIn the fourth, Francoeur and KJ had back-to-back doubles to start the inning. Very few things are actually impossible.
Fun with math: very few things are actually impossible, but plenty of things have a 0% chance of occurring. For example, since space is infinite, there is a 0% chance of me sitting in my chair at the exact spot in which I find myself right now.
Of course, I am, but since the denominator’s infinite — there are an infinite number of points in the universe at which I might also be — the chance is still 0%.
(Postscript: the above, along with the logical fallacy underneath, was taught to me by my brilliant late math teacher, Steve Sigur, whose recent passing brought it to my mind again. I’ll miss the man.)
July 25th, 2008 at 12:11 pmAAR’s fun with math makes me want to be buyers and get back into this thing.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:21 pmI understand the dilemma of this weekend’s series—I can’t root for the Phillies! But the way we play those guys, it may not matter. I have a hard time believing we can squeeze any more than one win out of the weekend.
Douglass/url,
Being a huge Husker Du fan from way back, I was mildly excited when we acquired Greg Norton—for name-factor alone. (The Braves also had Jim Morrison for awhile, of course.)
After a few pinch hits, that excitement died, however, when Norton became a regular player.
And I always thought that Norton the bassist somewhat favored Geraldo Rivera.
http://tinyurl.com/6jlshf
Helluva band, though.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:34 pmStu,
The Braves, IMO, would never go after Dunn because his value involves things the Braves don’t care about, ie, OBP. I’m sure they look at him as a guy with a low BA who strikes out a lot. The Braves think it’s more important to be able to advance the runner to third with one out so someone else can pop up. And he doesn’t “look” like a ballplayer either.
As for Bobby, he is really Ralph Houk. Cox came up under Houk, who Jim Bouton described as sort of the ultimate smoke blower. Bobby deceives himself and the players by making them think they are much better than they are. That works fine when you have a legitimately good team that just needs to relax and play with confidence (Houk’s early 60s Yankees and the 90s Braves) but it doesn’t work so well when the team really isn’t good.
As for this weekend, I have a feeling that the Phillies are about to fall apart. They were lucky to win one game against the Mets and they really have little pitching. Plus, it looks like Charlie Manual and Jimmy Rollins are at odds.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:05 pmYeah, Marc, that’s what I was alluding to in the penultimate (yes!!!) paragraph of 175. It’s going to kill me when the Red Sox sign him at some non-outrageous price.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pmCox did alright with a youth-loaded ‘05 team—they finished in 1st.
I think the last 2 division titles were pretty unexpected, actually. I’m certainly willing to give Bobby some credit for those.
I’d take Dunn, sure, but I find it interesting how the Reds are really tired of him. I don’t go totally crazy about those Dunn quotes from JP Ricciardi—”He doesn’t really like baseball that much.”— but it makes you wonder a little.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pmMaybe Greg Norton wrote this song about Jeffy.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J1sYN0PuRs4
July 25th, 2008 at 1:20 pmAside from Francoeur, I’m failing to see how there’s evidence that the Braves don’t value OBP. Last time I checked, Chipper, KJ, Escobar, McCann, and going backwards, Giles, Furcal, Andruw, and others have been pretty darn good OBP-wise.
We make it seem like because Atlanta has had an extraordinarily long leash on Francoeur, that means they don’t value OBP, which the majority of the players they have developed have exhibited at least average and many of which have very above-average OBPs. Shoot, the fact that Atlanta has held on to guys like KJ and Chipper alone should tell us that Atlanta likes guys who gets on base. We hear a couple of TP quotes that are telling hitters to be aggressive, and we think that the Braves are telling their hitters to become a buncha Vlads and Frenchys.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:21 pmI don’t worry about that too much, ububba. They’re the freaking Reds, after all. What was the last good decision/evaluation their front office made, anyway? (OK, getting Volquez was pretty good…but they didn’t exactly get him for free.)
July 25th, 2008 at 1:21 pm#192, damn, now there’s a ’stache.
Speaking of Husker Du, Bob Mould’s recent solo album District Line is really good, plus it’s about Washington, DC.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:37 pmRob, everybody in the world would hold onto Chipper — his manifold talents with the bat are obvious to everyone.
The guy who’s much better for your argument is KJ, whose average isn’t great though isn’t wretched, who hits a few homers but not a ton, who hits some doubles, plays okay defense — basically, does a whole lot of little things well, controls the strike zone quite, and gets on base. Many people here and elsewhere would look at him and conclude that he’s just a replacement-level player, merely adequate, when in fact he’s actually well above-average because he does all those things.
If the Braves hold onto him, that will show that they value his skills, including OBP.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pmWhat does a ballplayer look like, in the eyes of the Braves, Marc?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:51 pmJeff Francoeur.
*weeps*
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pmAAR,
Yeah, it’s really the way they’ve developed and handled KJ that has led me to believe they actually care about OBP. They wanted his offensive production in the lineup, so they moved him to LF, then back to 2B, so it shows they value his skill sets and have tried to make room for him.
A lot of Chipper’s value is tied up in his ability to work the count and work walks. Obviously the high BA and power is big, but I don’t think Chipper would be as successful if he were a different type of hitter, same with Escobar, McCann, etc. I just don’t see that the Francoeur debacle means they don’t value OBP.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:57 pmStu,
I get that the Reds make bad decisions, but my point was really that, apparently, they aren’t alone in their feelings about Dunn. (Still, I’d take him.)
AAR,
Some of the Blowoff stuff that Bob did with Richard Morel (electronica-rock) is really good, too. (They DJ together at the 930 Club, but not so much in the summertime.)
A fave Husker Du song, if not favorite rug-cutter.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pmhttp://tinyurl.com/69t4z8
Well, we’ve also read reports about KJ not being “aggressive” enough for the team’s liking. I mean, yeah, they generally play the good players and don’t play the bad ones, and if Dunn had come up through the Braves’ system, they might recognize his value. But I still don’t see this being the type of organization that would offer a big-money contract (which is what it would take) to a guy with a career .240 batting average, no matter what his other numbers are. Have you read JS’ book, Rob? We aren’t exactly led by Bill James disciples.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:02 pmGame thread is up.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pm